Game Feedback Discussion

[casdegere]

Hi, I just wanted to open up this dialogue for us to discuss how we can improve our next game session. It is not to say that we all did not have fun...I feel we did. I know I did however I noticed that I was missing important information and some things that I felt were important were also missed.

Having new people...characters come into a group is always difficult, even though Andre has taken great pains to try and streamline this with flashbacks. I.E. Characters actually knowing some things about each other before they join into the campaign. This is both good and bad. Over time people change and so do their allegiances. Why would Azcot be with the Black Draconians? Does anyone know? Could he have changed? Or will it be taken for granted that he will be fighting for his so-called comrades. Also, it is natural that the present players want to get on with the objectives at hand which is completely understandable.

A pitfall that can occur however is that the new character/s are rushed into something that they do not really understand. While this may be ok for certain things, I would think that everyone would find it reasonable to want to know why for instance, they would make an enemy of a grown, Black Dragon and its henchmen even if it is evil. Normally it is not lawful to assault someone just because they are of an evil alignment. In fact, showing aggression and instigation are ways that evil characters can get good ones into trouble. Most people have to be absolutely sure that what they are doing is the right thing. And killing for any reason outside of an arena is alot harder to justify. An Evil Dragon doing evil deeds may need no justification...to a human. But to another race? Some explanation might need to be offered.

First impressions: I would also like to point out that like in real life, first impressions between characters is also important. Azcot was with the Draconians when he was reunited with Rin and Za'era. Though some things were said to him, It could be that he was not properly deposed as to what he was doing there. While there were a few things said there was this urgency to move on I felt and a valuable opportunity might have been missed there. And now there is still suspicion and the party continues to move on, about to face a most dangerous foe, unsure if the party will be stabbed in the back but still moving ever forward.

At present Azcot knows a little about Za'era's past and her motivations and less about Rin's. He knows nothing about the two soft skins in the party. Za'era and maybe Rin as well know that Azcot's loyalty is not handed to others on a stick like cotton candy. Nor would Azcot assume such from anyone else. It might take some Rping to get him to trust those he does not know enough to fight alongside them.

I have included the above examples to help explain my point. Every character has a story to tell and if we all slow down just a little I believe it will increase what we get out of our time together.

I would really appreciate all of your own thoughts on this as I am a new player to this group. It may well be that the next time we play, it will be better without changing anything. It will also still be fun for me if nothing at all changes but I feel I was missing some good rping trying to keep up.

[Andre]

Also casdegere had a suggestion .. in his other FG group the players follow a convention where one player's PC can't start a conversation until the first conversation ends so the PC's aren't "talking over each other" so to speak.. basically on skype they just shout out "done ! " when they're done with their conversation so everyone knows

(Though this might be a prob for people who can't speak on skype for whatever reason like our new recruit solar dawn .. the problem with typing "done" on skype too is people would have to pay attention to both it and the text in FG too ... ) ..

I'm willing to give it a try if other people are but my concern is it slowing FG game sessions down .. maybe it's just me, Za'era and Rin can weigh in on this too but sometimes i feel I'm not running the FG game sessions at a quick enough pace for players to be happy - that is players might be getting bored with the pace.. so if I can get feedback on this too that would be great ... maybe I'm wrong in my assumption ? The reason I mention Za'era and Rin specifically here is that they've been through several dragonlance FG game sessions so they're in a good position to comment on it but obviously if someone else wants to weigh in on the pace thing feel free to do so ! (flak has been through 2 dragonlance FG games now and might have some thoughts , I haven't been able to work solar dawn's pc in yet but he might have an opinion on this too ) ... nydhog/Eolaer isn't very active on the forums but if he does respond to this he's been with the group since the beginning like Rin meaning he's gone through a bunch of FG dragonlance game sessions with me ...

Also casdegere was quick to point out in his online chat with me that he doesn't want to "rock the boat" if everyone is happy with the current situation as is, it's merely a suggestion on his part .. he knows that no FG game is going to be perfect in other words ..

Basically I'd like to get everyone to weigh in on casdegere's suggestion far as taking turns on conversations instead of just declaring it right away as part of game style, which I think is what casdegere wants too (to get everyone's opinion on it )

[madelaine]

I have the same problem with things getting lost in the chat. I thought it was me because of not being a native English speaker and maybe not reading fast enough so I did not mention it anymore after I said a few times that I feel not being fast enough to respond properly sometimes.
Now that Cas seems to have the same problem I guess its more than just me and not being a native English speaker.
I would like to give it a try and you can always write "done!" in the FG chat as well.

To the point of trust and Azcot and backstabbing. Well... In my case Za'era made her experience with him and trusts him. He saved her more than once and always (so far seems to have) been honest to her.

I am not sure how we can win against t dragon but maybe it will just need the right timing or maybe we can get those disks from right under her belly. That's why I sneaked after her in the end.

So far about my opinion and intentions.

[darkalloy]

Oh yeah I lose things in chat too, sometimes it does move way to quickly. See and I thought it was because I'm dyslexic.... So nice that Google chrome has a built in spell checker.... Anywho I don't see the "done" thing being too much of a problem after all we do have the OOC chat in FG. It could possibly slow the game sessions down and they do get kinda slow when we start heavily RP'in or get into a giant sized combat.... The combat is to be expected though. I do feel part of the rushing was my fault however as feeling as horrid as I do my mind wasn't all there so I don't think I played Rin as well as I could have RP wise.... That and I fell asleep twice, no I wasn't bored just wore out.

[solardawn]

I know i'm only a new player but I wanted to give my two cents anyway.

I totally agree that things can get a little confusing sometimes, especially when FG hoses up and people keep having to connect and reconnect and skype is being difficult, those are all annoying distractions that just make things a little messy and difficult.

However, I don't think putting a limit on who can talk is exactly the right thing to do, I understand that 6 people all participating in the same conversation can get really hectic. But I don't like the idea of having to wait for each conversation to finish, because I think it will take a whole lot of time, and the first conversation will generally be performed by who-ever blurts out whatever they think of first, so if that first person happens to be character A, who has no reason to trust character B, there's a good chance the conversation is going into a bad direction, without any chance of character C, who's a friend of B, to interject.

I also think that despite your rule, confusion would still sometimes happen, let's say there's a conversation going to happen, I type something out, and out of sheer habit I press enter, but someone pressed enter a single second before me, and now there are still two lines, and now we have to decide how to deal with that. There can also be confusion about what exactly constitutes a specific conversation and what's just idle chat.
And also, it means that while two people are talking, 4 others are sitting idly by, which I just don't like much.

I think it would be better to say that if someone feels they are getting lost, to just whisper the GM, who can put up that big stop hand, and we'll work it out OOC, make sure everyone is back on the same page, and then we can carry on as before.

I also personally feel that the introduction of a new player is the one time in gaming, when it's alright to use a bit of OOC knowledge.
Having a group of friends travelling through the world and doing things, then accepting a random person they just met, or even someone they met in the past, is 'always' going to feel a little unnatural I believe.

So I generally feel it's alright to be a bit lenient to a new character, and yes I understand that's a bit of metagaming, which I'm normally very much against. But in this case I just think it improves the game for everyone.
And I also think that it's almost always possible to find some reason your character to accept someone on a temporary basis, even if that reason is merely "Hey it's one more target for the dragon." Doesn't mean you have to instantly like him, doesn't mean you have to be best friends forever. But once a new character is accepted into the group, things will usually fall into place automatically.

Hope what I said makes some sense, even if not everyone might agree.

[darkalloy]

Actually Solar you have a good thought there. Judging from the group affinity for RP and I hadn't thought about this earlier the 'done' thing would probably slow the game down a bit too much with our RPin'. And yes the intro of new characters is always a slight headache/confusion moment in character and occasionally out of character, more confusion than anything out of character as we aren't quite sure what to tell some one as they may already have the knowledge we do from other secret RP that or may respond badly to it. Like when Rin told everyone about dragons and the gods or Za'era told everyone that Takhisis had returned. Those were moments that were taken with a grain of salt in character.

[casdegere]

Face to face, characters raise their voices, use body language and gestures, are dismissive on purpose etc. to guide the flow of a conversation.

The problem with FG or text based multi-person conversations is that many people are typing up their responses before they really take time to read what is being said. Personal agenda's can become overlapping to the point that it no longer really mimics a fair, realistic view of a conversation and can get extremely discordant. In normal conversations, one or more people may have "the floor" so to speak and others are normally listening/waiting to hear what they have to say. In this way RPing may take a tad bit longer, however it will also be much more interesting to read afterward because it will flow much better like an actual conversation. Using DONE in OOC text in FG seems reasonable to me and in my opinion might be worth a try.

The encounter with Bupu was a pretty good example where I felt responses were hurried/rushed if you will due to the quick flow of the conversation. Then again later on. My point is that we all take the time to be together and enjoy playing someone different then ourselves. Most of that is RPing and getting people to feel who your character really is. It deserves a bit more time I think when opportunities/encounters are set before them.

I also think characters that wish to say something important could also send the GM a whisper to initiate this slow down process so that the player can have a little time to collect their thoughts and get them down into FG. It makes sense the the other characters wish to ignore a characters attempts to engage them in conversation. The important distinction is that each character should have their say if they wish it as this isn't real life and the other characters be given a little time to agree or rebuff what is being said. Profound statements are said this way as well as important information that may get missed otherwise.



Noticable differences between Madelaine and Andre's campaign: The largest noticable thing was this feeling of urgency. Passing up rooms, doors, no one really taking a little time to look at the surroundings. The party is in an unfamiliar pit with little hope of getting back up easily. Trudging along somewhat aimlessly to get to the end as if there were no real danger. It may well be that there is no rogueish/rangerish character to ply their skills and slow everyone up. ( ;D Pats himself on the back for Caz'De'Gir) Maybe I am paranoid but the other game I play in, such careless passage is punished severely with existing dangers.

[Andre]

Nov 10, 2010 8:29:49 GMT -5 @casdegere said:

Noticable differences between Madelaine and Andre's campaign: The largest noticable thing was this feeling of urgency. Passing up rooms, doors, no one really taking a little time to look at the surroundings. The party is in an unfamiliar pit with little hope of getting back up easily. Trudging along somewhat aimlessly to get to the end as if there were no real danger. It may well be that there is no rogueish/rangerish character to ply their skills and slow everyone up. ( ;D Pats himself on the back for Caz'De'Gir) Maybe I am paranoid but the other game I play in, such careless passage is punished severely with existing dangers.

Right right sorry casdegere I should have explained this to you earlier ! Basically the PC's interrogated a draconian in this thread (prior to Azcot and Sangrias joining up with them )

whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=forumroleplay&action=display&thread=220

(you'll have to read through a couple of pages of that thread to get the interrogated draconian info ... )

In which the draconians mentioned exactly where the dragon's lair was so the PC's are basically trying to make a beeline for the dragon's lair.. though Casdegere does have a point , rushing right towards a location without checking out the nooks and crannies could pose some danger

On the other hand... and when the rest of the PC's realize she's already gone and catch up to her , she might want to point this out to the others.. Za'era has been carefully listening for the enemy and has heard... nothing.. aside from the sound of the rushing waterfall it seems quiet.. TOO quiet.. especially given that the enemy is aware of your presence (the draconians jumped down into the hole and glided downwards on their wings , 8 drac's total and vanished from sight ) .... it's almost as if they're PLANNING something ...

But to get back to Casdegere's topic about the chat thing... yeah to tell the truth I had concerns similar to Solar Dawn's to be brutally honest.. I totally hear what Casdegere is saying , it's just that I've accepted it as a necesssary evil in FG .. I see it as the "nature of the beast" so to speak, the dilemma of gaming in FG ... I am worried about hampering RPing if a PC is waiting for their "turn" to chat so to speak and then I as the DM, not knowing this is the case, suddenly advance the scene to the next scenario ...

On the other hand casdegere is saying his group has made it work in his other FG games.. though casdegere , in your other FG games is there as much RP'ing going on in those games as there is here? Not to insult you or anything that's not my intent ! but if there's less in-character RPing going on in your example FG games I can see how it might work for your other FG games but not our own ...

And I kind of agree with Solar Dawn in that things are going to be awkward to begin with for a new PC until said PC has a chance to fully "mesh" with the group, become familar with them which can happen over the course of FG game sessions and forum in character chats with fellow PC's ....

BTW Solar Dawn don't dismiss yourself as "just" a new player, any player's opinion is important in our group ..

[darkalloy]

Well not yet in the roguish department, Rin will soon be able to open locks at least.... As for the conversation with Bupu you have to admit that Sangrias was trying to rush it for completely understandable reasons....*shivers* I probably shouldn't have bluffed so well. I wonder if she had any afflictions Sangrias could have got from her big sloppy kiss... Hmm.... Anywho I again have a feeling I was doing a tad bit of the rushing normally I don't try to rush anything. How ever I get this odd feeling that I did now that I am less BLARG! than I was last night.

[casdegere]

Well if it will make things easier and allow for this new PC thing to be more efficient i can subtely adjust Azcot to be a willing participant forgoing his neutral status and due to Za'era, he will be somewhat prepped on who Onyx is and what she has done. This will give the groups trust in him a jumpstart and he will thusly avoid having to kill or maim the humans for their disrespectful behavior. Using the opportunity when they engage the Draconians or the dragon to do so.

[darkalloy]

No no Azcot's quite fine as is it gives me an opportunity next session to try and get him to help us, and make everyone else trust him..... though I doubt that will work with sangrias, eolaer defiantly as while Rin has kicked eolaer down holes he generally trusts Rin's judgement of character or at least I've gotten that impression from him.

[Andre]

Nov 10, 2010 9:36:36 GMT -5 @casdegere said:

....and he will thusly avoid having to kill or maim the humans for their disrespectful behavior. Using the opportunity when they engage the Draconians or the dragon to do so.

Um yeah that's the other thing too (looks embarassed).. and this is something else I should have gone over with you prior to the game casdegere so my apologies ...

Here's my view on PC's of Good alignment (as Eolaer's player nydhog will tell you we had SEVERAL discussions about this ) ... and Flak I'll call this to your attention too with the whole " get moving I have a sword at your back" thing ... (though I think that's just RP'ing on Sangrias's part you'll notice he didn't actually try to put the sword through Azcot's back )

Threatening and posturing , the whole " whose organ is bigger" thing that say Eolaer likes to do is fine ... I'm even a fan of non-lethal combat where PC's try to kick, punch and grapple the hell out of each other , makes for good RP'ing as far as I'm concerned ....

Personally speaking however it's my view that Good aligned PC's do not start hacking on each other with a sword unless they have a VERY good reason.. if a fellow PC turns evil and is cackling in a maniacal fashion while holding a little girl by swordpoint ready to slit her throat.. in an EXTREME situation like that I can see PC's attacking each other for lethal damage... having said that it's my expectation that Good aligned PC's show a certain reluctance for bloodshed among even "companions by necessity, not friends" as Sangrias would put it ... Eolaer will threaten a whole bunch but I think his player has learned by now (again after several pointed discussions between himself and I ) that attacking other PC's for lethal damage won't be tolerated if your PC is good aligned unless you have a VERY good reason other than " He pissed me off " ... To me if you're willing to carve pieces out of a fellow PC simply for acting in a disrespectful manner that's the mark of a Neutral (or Evil) aligned PC not a Good one... and I'm afraid this is something I'm going to stand firm on too so it's something to keep in mind.

I like to model my campaigns after a good TV show, and in the standard TV shows (even the medieval/sci-fi ones) you'll see the characters growling at and threatening each other, you'll even see them beat the crap out of each other on certain episodes much to the entertainment of the viewers if it fits the plotline of the story ... but you'll rarely, if ever, see the main characters who are the "good guys" of the story attacking each other for lethal damage.. if they do it's a BIG thing that has a huge impact on the story, not something done casually ..

Again the intent is not to chew Casdegere out here, this is completely my fault for not warning him about it prior to the campaign starting ! And I'm sure between Eolaer and Sangrias from last FG game session Azcot would have gotten the impression the PC's like to carve pieces out of each other every now and then ... As a matter of fact I'll be a bit dissapointed if Azcot doesn't try to put at least one of their heads through a wall after the fight with the dragon is over... as long as it's for non-lethal damage of course ..

[darkalloy]

I have a feeling I'll need to get a beak splint soon.... I wonder if thats just a coincidence? Also Andre you have given me an awesome idea, Rin is going to learn minor image or silent I can't remember which and cackle manically while holding the image of a baby kitten over a cook pot. And people wonder why you never want to know what is in his cooking.

[Andre]

lol and points at Rin declaring in DM voice " ATTACK HIM FOR LETHAL DAMAGE NOW WHILE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE ! NO ALIGNMENT VIOLATION ! "

[darkalloy]

Oddly since they believe it to be a baby kitten that may be what would happen..... Hmm... how about a baby kender? Any objections to that?