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Post by Andre on May 13, 2011 17:13:15 GMT -5
Ok .. the reason for this thread is one player (the player that is not the character, in real life) got particularly upset with how our last FG game session (Tues May 10th when the dragon took the great big dump on poor Za'era and Zane) ended... I won't name this particular player since I don't want to embarrass said player, but said player is so upset that said player says the player will take a more passive role in future FG game sessions, even to the point where they lose out on XP and RP... needless to say this concerns me a great deal ! My attempts to work it out with the player in question haven't borne any fruit so all I can do now is cross my fingers and hope that things work out eventually with said player  ... ... However, this also has me concerned that other players might be upset over how that FG game session ended.. so , basically, here's what was going through my mind at the time... The player who was upset felt that the confrontation with the senile crazy red dragon Flamestrike felt "scripted" and that the players were "railroaded" into following a certain path... I do admit that I am using pre-published modules not stuff I wrote up myself - wish I could write my own stuff but the truth is with my 7 and 9 year olds I just don't have the time to create a campaign from "whole cloth" so to speak ... so there will be a certain amount of railroading "built into " the modules to begin with I'm afraid ... One thing I will definitely admit to however... players are probably wondering why the heck the crazy senile red dragon had to take a dump on Zane and Za'era.. THAT was not something prescripted as part of the module, definitely not  .. here was my reasoning. Zane's player, blahness98, said he was ok with writing up a new character when Zane the character was antagonizing Flamestrike - blahness98 said this in response to darkalloy (Rin's) " What are you doing? Quit antagonizing the dragon ! skype voice chat comment.. " Also, in an ooc comment this past FG game session Madelaine (who runs Za'era) said she didn't mind killing off her character fighting a dragon as long as she stayed true to her "Drow heritage" so to speak from the RP point of view. While I appreciate the players' willingness to be ok with their PC's being killed off as a result of said PC's actions (attacking an ancient giant red dragon) .. to be honest I as a DM wasn't willing to let the PC's go so readily... Blahness98 and Madelaline (and Valaun, darkalloy and Solardawn ) can probably both attest to the fact that I've spent a LOT of time with the players writing up flashback threads with them on forum RP threads... also I've written up plenty of subplots for said characters... so I "fudged" it a bit.. basically what was going through my mind was " Okay we have a dragon who is REALLY pissed off and who needs to vent that anger but I don't want to kill the PC's - what do I do ? " The first thing I could think of was to have the red dragon humilate said PC's in order to get rid of all that rage the dragon was feeling ... this did NOT go over well with the upset player I mentioned earlier. So, I apologize in advance, no more poo poo ! But I do have to ask if any other players are extremely upset with and/or disagree with this as well? If so I apologize to those other players as well (just like I apologized to the upset player mentioned above- I'm afraid said player isn't willing to accept my apology however which makes me sad ) but I'd really like input on this from everyone else too ... Also since the player mentioned above felt things were "railroaded" and "scripted" I will, if said player wants me to, take the "kid gloves" off, for that player's character at least ... I can see how players would get annoyed if they're expecting their PC's to die as a result of the player's actions and I then "cheat" things so that it doesn't happen.. I'll be honest it would be a HUGE amount of work for me to have to re-draft brand new forum flashbacks, write up new subplots et cet - but I guess that's my job as a DM ... I've grown to love these PC's so I personally don't want to see them go ! But if that's what the players want... so that's my next question to the group in general - should I take the "kid gloves" off so to speak? The other complaint the upset player had was this.. if I knew the dragon was going to create so much frustration from the player's point of view then why did I have the dragon wake up in the first place? Blahness98 this was before your time but ... basically Mintha the kender (run by Valaun the player aka Mel) grabbed a magic sword, wyrmsbane.. I made it clear that the sword would vibrate loudly if brought within 30 feet of a "true" dragon - .. see session recap at whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sessionrecaps&action=display&thread=664Now first off I should say I don't think it's a BAD thing at all that Mintha chose to carry the sword with her, even despite Serinda's warnings to Mintha it might not be a good idea (if you check the FG chat log I e-mailed you guys earlier on you'll see it's all in there in the text of the chat log) .. as far as I'm concerned it was a very kender-like thing to do ... " Oh cool bright shiny toy I'm going to keep it ! " .. when I'm able to award XP/RP points Mintha will definitely get bonus RP points for doing something that was very kender-like .. However Mintha did carry the sword with her so the dragon waking up was pretty much a given, not much I could do about that.. now it is true the dragon WAS snarling about how it wanted Za'era and Zane dead.. however bear a few other things in mind.. - it's a crazy senile old dragon - it didn't register as "evil", something Madelaline knew when she asked ooc if it was - she could have easily used her "detect evil" paladin ability to find it out in character too - the dragon acted second to last in the initiative round... it also kept calling Za'era " Sha'sensa" , confusing Za'era with her mother for some reason... rather than attacking Za'era could have just as easily said " I'm not Sha'sensa" - the PC's .. Zane and Za'era if memory serves me correctly.. attacked Flamestrike first, before she struck back at them (since they acted before Flamestrike in the initiative round)... if Za'era had made any attempt to talk her way out of it the combat probably wouldn't have taken place in the first place. I do understand Za'era's point of view.. all dragons are evil since they're the servants of Takhisis, KILL THEM ALL ! .. but even if Za'era or the other PC's felt combat was necessary I'm not sure combat to the death is necessary.. what about fighting the dragon until all the children she's "babysitting" escape then beating a hasty retreat rather than continuing to fight the dragon? That's one possible option... I"m not trying to tell players what they SHOULD have done in this situation, the PC's are free willed characters and they should feel free to react how the players feel they should have.. I guess it's the one player saying the whole thing felt "scripted" and the players feeling "railroaded" that kind of bothers me, that's why I'm bringing up all these "what if" scenarios and other anaylsis-type things of the whole situation. So I guess three questions I need to ask here: - was anyone else really offended by the poop thing? Even if you weren't the PC who got dumped on (i.e. even if you're not Zane or Za'era) I would like to get input on that - do people feel I should take the "kid gloves" off as far as potential PC death? I rationalized it this way - Flamestrike is a crazy old loon so I could see her "taking a dump" instead of outright killing PC's but if players want me to start acting in a more "realistic" fashion I can do that if that's what people want (NOT threating to kill PC's off on purpose either btw just wondering what people want) - did anyone feel "railroaded" or that things were "scripted" If I could get everyone who was present for that FG game session to weigh in on this that would be great ! I don't want unhappy upset players .. I can't reach the one upset player I mentioned no matter how hard I try , which leaves me no choice but to wait and hope the upset player will eventually forgive me.. but I"m going to be even MORE concerned if other players are getting upset too ! What's going through your minds right now guys? |
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Post by darkalloy on May 13, 2011 17:35:31 GMT -5
I'm not offended in anyway nor did I feel all that railroaded after all like you said we are playing "scripted" content and it is sometimes hard to do anything out of the ordinary with such stuff. Like if Rin was able to talk Takhisis out of this war. It technically is possible with a high enough roll but since that would end the entire game right there, no matter what Rin would say Takhisis would keep on keepin' on. So: - No I'm not offended by the deification of Zane upon Za'era... If anything I am grateful... Gave me some "shitty" material to work into joke and songs for Rin and very possibly might help me finish this patter song I'm having trouble with. - The kid gloves can stay on or go off matters not to me. I basically expect Rin to die every session I mean it's Rin and I roll horrid a good portion of the time. Hell I half expect Serinda to blast some enemies with an Ice Ball and accidentally catch Rin with it for pinching her bum. the or Mintha to find another giant slug that will kill Rin instead of really hurt him. - As I stated above more of less set in stone content as we are playing is hard not to make feel scripted. In fact I would think the DM is almost required to fudge some of the rolls to make it work or the entire campaign might fall apart. There are even going to be parts where we cannot do anything but basically watch because this is pre-written content I'm sure. The scripted feeling for some people might get even heavier the further in we get, as a good portion of that is probably super scripted. I mean even a original campaign is slightly scripted unless you just run a "Well you adventure.... Nope no real goal." kind of game. Well that's my two wooden nickels worth. Edit: I must admit though and I mean no offense by it... With the amount of evil/nude pictures Andre throws at us I would almost think something like this would have been unsurprising. *kicks self* If you are wondering why kicked my self it's because I linked this link. Madelaine I would not click it it's Matilis.... whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=importantnpcs&action=display&thread=611 |
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Post by solardawn on May 13, 2011 18:50:18 GMT -5
- was anyone else really offended by the poop thing? Even if you weren't the PC who got dumped on (i.e. even if you're not Zane or Za'era) I would like to get input on that I guess it doesn't particularly bother me, but there are two things I would add. 1. While i'm not like morally horrified or anything... I find it more eh... unrealistic lol, which is odd considering we're dealing with magical dragons, but mostly the part of someone being eaten and then coming out the other end seconds later seems a bit unlikely to me. Dragons have obscenely powerful stomach's in D&D, sometimes dragons actually eat some of their treasure, devouring and getting nourishment from gemstones, some as hard as diamonds, dragons are also capable of eating rocks, granite, sand. So I don't see someone coming out of the other end unscathed, in my view, if they can eat diamonds, they can eat you lol. Anyway, it's no big thing and I don't care. Secondly, I do think that if someone is already feeling railroaded and like they're facing an unstoppable NPC and thus already feeling a bit irritated, being pooped on by an NPC is probably the worst thing that could have possibly happened, I'm not saying at all that you did that on purpose, because i know you'd never do that. I'm just saying, timing sucks. Again, not your fault, if you don't know a player feels slighted, obviously if you don't know about it, you can't account for it. But i can also understand how someone who already feels a little hurt, can see that as a kick in the privates, just because that's human nature. - do people feel I should take the "kid gloves" off as far as potential PC death? I rationalized it this way - Flamestrike is a crazy old loon so I could see her "taking a dump" instead of outright killing PC's but if players want me to start acting in a more "realistic" fashion I can do that if that's what people want (NOT threating to kill PC's off on purpose either btw just wondering what people want) I guess i'm torn here, on one side, I put a lot of effort into Serinda and I don't want her to die, that would suck. On the other hand, it's a game, and there needs to be a chance to loose. Without it, it looses some of the excitement. So my answer would be, i think there should be a chance to die, but it shouldn't be at the drop of a hat. - did anyone feel "railroaded" or that things were "scripted" Well the campaign is scripted to a certain degree, and events are kind of railroaded, now this doesn't bother me too much, I haven't read the books, I don't know where the train is going, and I think/hope you'll allow us enough freedom to make the story our own. I have no idea how far we've deviated from the story so far and I don't really care heh. Now I understand there are some NPC's we shouldn't attack, Ember, Harvester, the enemy gods, they're beyond our scope currently, and that's not a big deal, sometimes you have to know which enemies you can't take on. In this case I don't think it was particularly clear, there was a lot of descriptive text stating how worn and falling apart she looked, which made me think maybe we could win. It was made clear that there was a way to get around the dragon without fighting it, but it wasn't clear that was the only way. I do have to say I agree with Madelaine that sometimes characters just aren't going to do the smart thing. Serinda is smart, but she won't always follow the smart course, especially since she's stubborn as hell, and also emotional. That combined with NPC's that were never really intended to fight, can create difficulties if said NPC's are confrontational. Right now, I can't think of a solution to fix that exactly, I just wanted to mention it, so it's brought up. Lastly, and this is my personal main concern, if we do end up fighting something we haven't a chance of defeating, I would say, for me personally, please just end it quick. I would rather be defeated in the first round of combat, simply because the DM says so, without there being any rolls at all, and being thrown in jail. Then spend 3-4 rounds of combat and an hour and a half on said combat, when i couldn't win anyway. I'd rather use that time to roleplay Serinda and Za'era having to share a single little jailcell and one creaky bunkbed. So I guess my bullet points would be: -I don't think getting eaten by a dragon is good for your health  -I'd be careful be careful with npc's shitting on players, just because at best, it gives us all a chuckle, and at worst, someone ends up insulted. (Unintentionally of course). And i don't like those odds. -Death should be a possibility, but not a common occurrence. -Encounters with confrontational NPC's that simply outclass/overpower the PC's can be a catalyst for good roleplaying, or extremely frustrating, and I understand Madelaine's feelings, I do. -Most importantly, if we can't win, get it over with, and get back to the roleplaying! That's where it's all at. I hope none of it sounds too negative, it isn't meant to be, just my 2 cents. |
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Post by blahness98 on May 13, 2011 19:37:23 GMT -5
This will be a quick reply as I don't have a lot of time. From my point of view, the shitting of Zane was something I completely did not expect. Zane did what he would have done. He would have shot an arrow to shut the dragon up for insulting his father. Not running afterward was a dumb move on my part but it could have been played out as Zane being g do angry that he wanted another shot to really do damage.
As to your questions.. I did not feel railroaded. I (unfortunately) have played this part of the campaign and it was a lot different than the last time. This time was better as the DM stayed directly with the book and allowed no changes. From what I can tell you are putting your own spin on things and it does make the game fun
Death should be always an option if the character. One that should not be done just on a whim but when a character does something exceptionally stupid. Zane did that, while it was to stick up for his dad, it was still really stupid. And while it would place another burden on the DM to create links to the current PC's, there could just be the odd character out that just goes along with the PC's because it is the right thing. The links can then form.
This was my first time with you as a DM Andre so I don't have a comparison or a history of what you have done, but from what I have seen so far, you have gone far above and beyond what other DM's have done.
I wasn't offended about being eaten then shit out. If Zane was awake he would have made the comment about the dragon cutting back on her fiber and eating something else. From a lot of the pics and things on this forum, being shit on/out was something not completely out of left field. It just adds roleplaying options.
The only thing I can say is something that was said already. While something maybe funny, it could be insulting at the same time.
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Post by madelaine on May 14, 2011 0:09:25 GMT -5
Ok .. the reason for this thread is one player (the player that is not the character, in real life) got particularly upset with how our last FG game session (Tues May 10th when the dragon took the great big dump on poor Za'era and Zane) ended... I won't name this particular player since I don't want to embarrass said player, but said player is so upset that said player says the player will take a more passive role in future FG game sessions... Please Andre... Use my name... Hiding behind the obvious and playing the good Samaritan is even more embarrassing. My attempts to work it out with the player in question haven't borne any fruit... A personal attack I can easily return: "My attempts to work it out with the DM in question haven't borne any fruit..." ... However, this also has me concerned that other players might be upset over how that FG game session ended.. so , basically, here's what was going through my mind at the time... Actually it was me who asked you to post a thread on the board and check if I am the only one who felt that way. You did not seem concerned about it at all up to that point. The player who was upset felt that the confrontation with the senile crazy red dragon Flamestrike felt "scripted" and that the players were "railroaded" into following a certain path... I do admit that I am using pre-published modules not stuff I wrote up myself - wish I could write my own stuff but the truth is with my 7 and 9 year olds I just don't have the time to create a campaign from "whole cloth" so to speak ... so there will be a certain amount of railroading "built into " the modules to begin with I'm afraid ... Using pre-made modules does not leave the DM without options as you showed many times by adding personal content. In the end its the DM who runs the show and makes the final decisions. In this case it has been the wrong ones in my opinion. The first thing I could think of was to have the red dragon humilate said PC's in order to get rid of all that rage the dragon was feeling ... this did NOT go over well with the upset player I mentioned earlier. You did not humiliate the characters. You went straight for the players instead. The characters were already unconscious. Hard to humiliate someone who is not realizing that he/she is humiliated. While others may found it amusing I for myself found it disgusting and an attack against me as a player like "see... rolling shitty dice and roleplaying shitty gets you into shit you stupid player". If so I apologize to those other players as well (just like I apologized to the upset player mentioned above- I'm afraid said player isn't willing to accept my apology however which makes me sad ) but I'd really like input on this from everyone else too ... Andre please... English might not be my native tongue but I my rhetoric skills are good enough to realize an assumption even in this language as well the try to make me look like the bad person. I'll be honest it would be a HUGE amount of work for me to have to re-draft brand new forum flashbacks, write up new subplots et cet - but I guess that's my job as a DM ... One among others... I've grown to love these PC's so I personally don't want to see them go ! I would not like to see them go either but letting them die or letting them fight a futile fight for hours to finally let them end in frustration and additionally slap the players in the face (see my comment above) are two different things in my opinion. [...] However Mintha did carry the sword with her so the dragon waking up was pretty much a given, not much I could do about that.. now it is true the dragon WAS snarling about how it wanted Za'era and Zane dead.. however bear a few other things in mind.. - it's a crazy senile old dragon And? - it didn't register as "evil", something Madelaline knew when she asked ooc if it was - she could have easily used her "detect evil" paladin ability to find it out in character too You are correct. MADELAINE knew the dragon was not evil. Za'era though did not know this and did not see a reason to check it. It was a red dragon. They are supposed to be evil as far as she knows. Shall we talk about good roleplay and how to seperate OOC knowledge from IC knowledge? Really? Do we need to go to the basics? - the dragon acted second to last in the initiative round... it also kept calling Za'era " Sha'sensa" , confusing Za'era with her mother for some reason... rather than attacking Za'era could have just as easily said " I'm not Sha'sensa" And give the dragon time to (a) attack Serinda? or (b) attack the children? or (c) attack someone else of the party? or (d) attack Za'era? I made Za'era act true to her character and her IC knowledge. - the PC's .. Zane and Za'era if memory serves me correctly.. attacked Flamestrike first, before she struck back at them (since they acted before Flamestrike in the initiative round)... if Za'era had made any attempt to talk her way out of it the combat probably wouldn't have taken place in the first place. Read the previous comment again please. I do understand Za'era's point of view.. all dragons are evil since they're the servants of Takhisis, KILL THEM ALL ! .. but even if Za'era or the other PC's felt combat was necessary I'm not sure combat to the death is necessary.. Interesting... You understand her point but still think she could have acted different .. but even if Za'era or the other PC's felt combat was necessary I'm not sure combat to the death is necessary.. No one demanded this if I remember correctly. what about fighting the dragon until all the children she's "babysitting" escape then beating a hasty retreat rather than continuing to fight the dragon? That's one possible option... Tried that... Got smacked on the ground and pooped on before everyone else was safe... I"m not trying to tell players what they SHOULD have done in this situation, the PC's are free willed characters and they should feel free to react how the players feel they should have.. The last couple of paragraphs you exactly seemed of doing what you now claim not to do. You tried to tell me/us what she could have done to avoid this (which makes this sentence in this context could also be read as "should have done") but now claim to be the one who gets beaten on by a bad player for doing a (in your perfect) good job. I guess it's the one player saying the whole thing felt "scripted" and the players feeling "railroaded" that kind of bothers me, that's why I'm bringing up all these "what if" scenarios and other anaylsis-type things of the whole situation. Once again ... You bring this up because I asked you to do it in our mails. Not because you felt that it is necessary. - was anyone else really offended by the poop thing? Even if you weren't the PC who got dumped on (i.e. even if you're not Zane or Za'era) I would like to get input on that Alone by reading the log I saw that I have not been the only one. - do people feel I should take the "kid gloves" off as far as potential PC death? I rationalized it this way - Flamestrike is a crazy old loon so I could see her "taking a dump" instead of outright killing PC's but if players want me to start acting in a more "realistic" fashion I can do that if that's what people want (NOT threating to kill PC's off on purpose either btw just wondering what people want) Solardawns mentioned something that is my exact opinion. Here is the quote: "Lastly, and this is my personal main concern, if we do end up fighting something we haven't a chance of defeating, I would say, for me personally, please just end it quick. I would rather be defeated in the first round of combat, simply because the DM says so, without there being any rolls at all, and being thrown in jail. Then spend 3-4 rounds of combat and an hour and a half on said combat, when i couldn't win anyway. I'd rather use that time to roleplay Serinda and Za'era having to share a single little jailcell and one creaky bunkbed." - did anyone feel "railroaded" or that things were "scripted" Yes... You made us fight a combat for hours we could not win. What else is railroading? Why not cast a mass hold person? Or a timestop? Or a wish? Or just simply teleport away? Or fly away? Just to end it quickly. OR not let her wake up and instead have given Mintha a chance to avoid waking her up by i.e. feeling the buzzing of the sword starting in her bag as she came closer to the dragon so she could have walked away again to calm the sword? A lot of options you COULD have had. Not that I want to say that you SHOULD have taken any one of them. If I could get everyone who was present for that FG game session to weigh in on this that would be great ! I don't want unhappy upset players .. I can't reach the one upset player I mentioned no matter how hard I try I can't reach the one DM I mentioned no matter how hard I try... , which leaves me no choice but to wait and hope the upset player will eventually forgive me.. but I"m going to be even MORE concerned if other players are getting upset too ! What's going through your minds right now guys? Why are you concerned Andre. You made clear more than once that all of the players are easy replaceable. That in your campaigns people come and go and that this is the natural flow. Is it really US you are concerned about or the work you have to do to rewrite the module and write up more threads in the board to get the new players into the group? I apologize in advance as this is a hard post and will possibly cause drama. This time I did not try to be as diplomatic as possible. |
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Post by darkalloy on May 14, 2011 1:53:09 GMT -5
To be fair about the sword it starts buzzing at 30 feet from any dragon and awakens/alerts all dragons within 300 feet. However to be fair to Mel, Madelaine and everyone else it was in a bag of holding which the space in it is technically located on I think the astral plane... that or the ethereal plane either way it was not on the material plane so either a.) would not buzz or b.) could not be heard buzzing.
Mind you I did not feel railroaded by the fight... I kinda knew from the beginning we would not be able to kill and to be honest Rin did promise not to hurt her. However even so all the talk about good role-playing and then ending a fight quickly almost contradicts itself. I mean ending such a battle quickly (Like teleporting of flying) would basically be railroading as well if you think about it. We had no idea if we could beat her or not, and if we even had the slimmest chance of it and Andre took it away by say having her teleport away I could almost see someone going... "But she's senile. Would she know when to retreat?" I mean no offense by it either, but this is kinda what are we to do? Ask the DM "Can we win this?" before every fight? That would kinda kill any role play or excitement from the battle if he went yes. If he said no would he have to make the enemies we can't kill or have no hope of beating run every-time they saw us. If that is the case then there is also no real risk in our fights as we are not supposed to know whether or not this battle we are about to do is going to kill us all if we don't run quickly.
Now again I mean no offense by what I'm about to type but I see a couple of things that almost seem like they are being over looked but that could just be me. It relates to the PC's themselves and sadly while I don't like pointing things out all that much I am going to just because. Well that and it may or may not be obvious.
Serinda is stubborn as Solar said, however I also noticed that she seems to be taking on qualities of Za'era and scarily Eolaer/Nine. This could simply be Solar putting more Silvenesti into her I admit, but it's the way it's happening. It's almost like harm Za'era and your likely to be frozen to a wall. Not to mention she seems to be getting almost blood thirsty, like well... everybody but Rin and Mintha (not including Zane as it was his first game and we have no idea if he will be bloodthirsty) it would seem... Rin does have his moments mind you and I'm sure Mintha will too. I have also noticed her elven superiority complex seems to be steadily growing to the point of bordering on megalomania.
Za'era well she is a tough nut to crack but, I think I have noticed somethings. First off she seems to be slowly slipping back into her original drowish nature. Superior to all elves, males, and other beings. Like when she shoved the skeleton of a Qualinesti speaker onto the floor and kinda just sat in the throne like it was hers. Second her level of bloodthirsty-ness is almost too high as of late, I remember when she would try to not kill things as she feared she would become... well like this again. Now she kinda just bashes the brains out of anything that might be evil we come across, whether it had a chance or not. I mean it feels like we are getting dangerously close to seeing Za'era violate her paladin code.
Mintha.... Kender.... 'nuff said. I mean really not many observations I can make about Mintha as we haven't had enough sessions for me to really grasp anything beyond... Kender.
Zane... Well about the same for Mintha. I really can't say anything.
Eolear.... Well he's kinda hard to do too. Last thing I remember was he was getting less blood thirsty basically mellowing down to what Za'era was at the time. Seeing that he kinda sorta guest star-ish/gone his character could do a super dramatic turn in his personality.
Anyway just a bit more of my wooden nickels I hope I didn't offend, however I do want to say one more thing and I kinda wish I wasn't bringing this up but it's another one of those things stuck in my mind that almost seems to be a sort of cause. I'm going to only say one word to explain and if you want me to go into more detail feel free to ask.... I on here all the time... I know it's sad right? Anyway... Casdegere... Zane you will probably have no idea what I am talking about unless you read like everything on the forums or Andre told you more than he was here and made a few billion waves.
I'm off for the night as I have a mild stomach ache and have just taken some anti-nausea pills that make me a bit sleepy. I think I'm feeling whatever I ate that made me sick on mothers day.
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Post by solardawn on May 14, 2011 4:09:28 GMT -5
On my phone so I can ony reply in small parts. I dont think asking the battle to be over quick is bad, who said the enemy needs to retreat? If I made a bad call and attacked something far superior and the gm feels I should die for it that too can be done fast. I didnt ask for a change of outcome, just prefer the resolution to be quicker. Nor did I demand it, I was asked to give an opinion so I did. All I said was in a situation where we cnt change thw outcome, lets not bog things down with game mechanics. Our ingame time together is so rare just seems like a shame.
Next post later!
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Post by madelaine on May 14, 2011 6:22:00 GMT -5
Serinda is stubborn as Solar said, however I also noticed that she seems to be taking on qualities of Za'era and scarily Eolaer/Nine. This could simply be Solar putting more Silvenesti into her I admit, but it's the way it's happening. It's almost like harm Za'era and your likely to be frozen to a wall. Not to mention she seems to be getting almost blood thirsty, like well... everybody but Rin and Mintha (not including Zane as it was his first game and we have no idea if he will be bloodthirsty) it would seem... Rin does have his moments mind you and I'm sure Mintha will too. I have also noticed her elven superiority complex seems to be steadily growing to the point of bordering on megalomania. Za'era well she is a tough nut to crack but, I think I have noticed somethings. First off she seems to be slowly slipping back into her original drowish nature. Superior to all elves, males, and other beings. Like when she shoved the skeleton of a Qualinesti speaker onto the floor and kinda just sat in the throne like it was hers. Second her level of bloodthirsty-ness is almost too high as of late, I remember when she would try to not kill things as she feared she would become... well like this again. Now she kinda just bashes the brains out of anything that might be evil we come across, whether it had a chance or not. I mean it feels like we are getting dangerously close to seeing Za'era violate her paladin code. I can only talk for Za'era and leave the Serinda part to Solardawn. It is interesting that you realize the change she slowly is going through and feel bothered about it as a player. But instead of going into some RP to make things change or to try finding out what is going on you just point with your finger to the player and complain. When did Rin interact the last time with Za'era? Oh. And I do not mean putting his hands on her to heal her after the fight with the dragon. |
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Post by solardawn on May 14, 2011 8:24:04 GMT -5
ok back home now, anyway,
dark's totally right in the things he said about Serinda, she has taken on qualities of Za'era, afterall they're in dating and it seems to me to be only natural.
I'd even go as far as to say that if she wasn't dating Za'era, she might be on Rin's side concerning the dragon.
And sure, she's very quick to defend Za'era, but I don't think she's crossed a line anywhere in her defense of Za'era, I think using force against that dragon was reasonable, even if there were misunderstandings.
As for the megalomaniac part, there's certainly truth to that too, although it doesn't really have to do with her thinking she's the most powerful or wealthy, but in this case, most morally superior, especially towards humans.
Serinda has never been a great fan of humanity, and her recent experiences made that worse.
In particular Sunstar trying to beat her up twice because she didn't like what Serinda was saying, really made her turn sour to all humans. It's a shame no one else was there to witness this.
I never tried to say, and I don't think i've ever said my character is perfect, she can't be, because there's clear personality flaws in her, i put them there. But the thing is, Andre asked me to speak up more, to interact as much as possible, so I'm trying to, but now i'm not saying the right things? Andre wanted me to speak up more because it'll create things to talk about in character and things to respond to, and these seem like things that can be talked about in character and responded to. Granted right now her temper is high so the opportunity might not be best, but by all means, bring up that she's letting her relationship with Za'era cloud her judgement at some point, i was expecting you to.
As for Cazdegere, that's kinda vague, I'm not sure if you're saying people are trying to control things too much. Obviously there is a point where that is true. And I think that line is different for each person. One might say that any complaint is ingratitude towards a hard working GM, another might say that as friends amongst eachother, critism should be possible. Both have merit i think and the line is somewhere in between.
I don't know if Madelaine crossed that line, personally I don't think so, because I can totally understand the reasons she feels bad. But i know other people might see it entirely different, such is the way of things.
As for me personally, I don't think i'm trying to control too much in any way, because... I didn't bring anything up. Andre asked for our opinions in this thread, and I gave it. And considering he asked for them, I'm assuming he wanted my honest opinion on stuff, so I tried to give it as fairly as possible.
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Post by darkalloy on May 14, 2011 9:48:21 GMT -5
I can only talk for Za'era and leave the Serinda part to Solardawn. It is interesting that you realize the change she slowly is going through and feel bothered about it as a player. But instead of going into some RP to make things change or to try finding out what is going on you just point with your finger to the player and complain. When did Rin interact the last time with Za'era? Oh. And I do not mean putting his hands on her to heal her after the fight with the dragon. I wasn't saying I'm bothered by it. I was merely pointing it out, it's character development and I like it. I'm sorry if it came across as such as that was not my intention. To be fair though the last time Rin RP'd with Za'era was the Gilthanis doesn't look good thread on the forums. I was simply trying to point this out for those that may not have noticed... *cough* Andre *cough*. Basically I was pointing out what you said Madeliane. Za'era right now is a bash first, bash some more and when brains are all over the room try and ask a question or two, kinda drow. Therefore she wasn't gonna give the dragon really anytime to focus on anyone but her. As for Cazdegere, that's kinda vague, I'm not sure if you're saying people are trying to control things too much. Obviously there is a point where that is true. And I think that line is different for each person. One might say that any complaint is ingratitude towards a hard working GM, another might say that as friends amongst eachother, critism should be possible. Both have merit i think and the line is somewhere in between. Not what I meant at all sorry if it came across like that. I meant I think he may have left us in a fragile state after all his... well drama isn't exactly an apt description. Lets face it that wasn't all that many game sessions ago in reality and I simply think we might still be feeling a few after effects of it. We were walking on broken glass when he was here and I just don't want it to get like that again. *sighs* I shouldn't post when I'm not feeling good I come across all wrong. Anyway I'm sorry for the misunderstanding of my post. |
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Post by madelaine on May 14, 2011 13:08:25 GMT -5
I wasn't saying I'm bothered by it. I was merely pointing it out, it's character development and I like it. I'm sorry if it came across as such as that was not my intention. To be fair though the last time Rin RP'd with Za'era was the Gilthanis doesn't look good thread on the forums. I meant more the fact of talking to her in private. Not interacting with her to save the elf or proceeding in the story. I was simply trying to point this out for those that may not have noticed... *cough* Andre *cough*. Basically I was pointing out what you said Madeliane. Za'era right now is a bash first, bash some more and when brains are all over the room try and ask a question or two, kinda drow. Therefore she wasn't gonna give the dragon really anytime to focus on anyone but her. You are right. She is very bitter at the moment and she mentioned it a few times already but got turned down by arguments and by kind of telling her to "stop whining". What if she really stopped whining and processes through this in her own way now? You are right. Her old heritage is rising inside her and Serinda has been the balance all the time so far. What if Serinda is not able to provide that balance anymore? You are right. Za'era no matter what still is a drow and this blood is strong inside her. What if the blood or the influence from outside grew too strong? The question is. Will you solve this before or after confronting Za'eras mother or whatever sister of her is waiting for us next door or will you wait till it is over? This though is not what this thread is about but as a matter of fact if my RP causes too much issues to any of you then say a word and I will stop. |
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Post by blahness98 on May 14, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -5
Give Zane a little time to settle in and he willtry to befriend her. He has a reason to and can explain them in character. Although it may cause a few secrets to get out that he has (mainly dealing with some of the things the players have already guessed) but I think he could also be someone that she could talk with is serinda does not happen to be around.
I am new to the group dynamic here, but I hope I could be of some help.
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Post by darkalloy on May 14, 2011 13:48:51 GMT -5
I meant more the fact of talking to her in private. Not interacting with her to save the elf or proceeding in the story. In that case it was the .:Roots:. thread. While that was back in the elven city it technically has been a little hectic in the PC's lives since then not to mention it was only like three days ago game time. Even then it wasn't a long Private chat, as Serinda showed up. Most of the chats Rin and Za'era had alone was before anybody really trusted anybody, back in the Adam days. While that is a long time it was also going to be hard to do so. After that Za'era was with Eolaer almost all the time. Now the same can be said about Za'era and Serinda. I'm not mad or anything like that about that fact, I just really don't think any chat for the PC's unless you go out of your way to make it a private chat is private. After all one of the PC's could stumble into the chat if your in anything less than a private inn room or the middle of the forest. I'm not asking you to tone down your RP or anything like that, as for Rin talking to her about it he notices it but it's not quite like I do. Right now he kinda see's it as a "Well we've been betrayed, nearly killed in battle and made prisoners all in the last few weeks. I'd kinda be surprised if someone wasn't.... Ummm a bit frustrated right now. I know I am." kinda thing. |
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Post by Andre on May 14, 2011 18:03:51 GMT -5
Wow.... wow... WOW.... Ok first things first... Madelaine has stated in the past she strongly identifies with her character to the point where she feels she IS Za'era.. she mentioned to me in a PM she sent to me " When Za'era cries, I cry " ... there was a somewhat similar situation here : whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rulesdiscussion&action=display&thread=519&page=1Where Casgegere's character, Azcot the Red dragon, pretended to be a bad guy, licked Za'era and so forth... then apologized for it afterwards but when Za'era had already melted into the ground, she cast some sort of stone meld spell or the like.... afterwards BOTH Za'era the character and Madelaine the player got very angry and upset with casdegere the player and Azcot the PC for not apologizing to Za'era to her face when Za'era was above-ground and able to hear. Is it just me or does anyone else see this as Za'era.. and Madelaine... being a little bit too sensitive? Madelaine I know things are very rough for you right now... you're recovering from a surgery that didn't go well the first time, you're in the middle of a job search and you mentioned the bit about being stabbed in the back by someone you cared about a great deal in Germany... but quite frankly as far as I can see you are really, REALLY reading way too much into this. Judging from the posts above you are the only one who has taken what happened last FG game session as a personal attack on you... You're probably going to disagree with me here Madelaine but I feel the need to re-iterate what I've said many times in the past ... IT'S ONLY A GAME ! If you take it this personally every time something bad happens to your character you're going to spend a LOT of time being upset in this campaign. Not so much you being singled out and more so the fact that sooner or later something bad is going to happen to all the PC's... Sorry to "out" you here darkalloy but the other thing that worries the heck out of me Madelaine is that you've got darkalloy so upset he's offering to kill off his character (Rin) so that you're not upset anymore.. things should never, NEVER get to that stage, ever. I understand and accept that I made a mistake as far as the the red dragon going poo on defeated characters and, once again, I apologize for it... and I understand solardawn's point about not letting a combat drag on for hours that the PC's cannot win ... however from my point of view the PC's did win it ! The important thing here was achieved - you got the kids out safely. From my point of view as a DM once you accomplished that you'd pretty much "won".... there are some battles PC's just aren't going to be able to win in terms of defeating an opponent more powerful than you, something that you'll run into from time to time, this happened to be one of them. I apologize for not making it more obvious that it was a battle you couldn't win and I'll work on making sure I drop stronger "hints" the next time a situation like this arises.... It also looks like the group consensus is that I should be more willing to let PC death happen if a PC commits to a situation where said PC death becomes likely.. Madelaline mentioned to me she was aware Za'era's actions were suicidal when she attacked the senile red dragon but she decided to go for it anyways because she felt it was good RP'ing ... ok that's fine, she will in fact get RP points for commiting to her character's personality to the point where she's willing to kill off said PC.. and while I'm pretty reluctant to kill off PC's on my part if that's what people need to happen to bring that extra-realistic " feel " to the campaign (which is something I can definitely understand) then we'll do that.. in retrospect I can see Madelaine would have been far less upset if Za'era had been killed off rather than humiliated. Dark alloy I most certainly do NOT want you killing off Rin because Madelaine is upset... I appreciate you doing the heroic sacrifice thing here but to be blunt I think Madelaine is being rather unreasonable, just as she was in the casdegere/azcot situation.... Blahness98 I appreciate you being willing to show kindness to Za'era and if you do that's great but quite frankly I would take complaints from her with a grain of salt given her inability to separate Madelaline the player from Za'era the character. Madelaline I think your expectations of me as a DM are unreasonably high.. I will admit I made a mistake but your reaction seems very, VERY out of proportion to what happened... it makes me nervous that you're this sensitive about what happened, quite frankly I think most players would just shrug it off like Blahness98/Zane did ... again I understand things are very difficult for you right now but quite frankly I really, REALLY do not have the time to address your hurt /feelings right now.. I'm sorry, I know that sounds harsh but running a campaign keeps me WAY busy and my 7 and 9 year olds keep me even more busy - I know you said you're never having children of your own but try sitting in with a family that has kids some day and watching how busy the munchkins keep them... to be brutally honest I think you have a lot more free time than I do right now , otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much time being hurt and upset about this.... please, PLEASE stop taking in-game incidents so personally. You were correct in your above post you are indeed causing WAY too much drama and quite honestly I'd rather not deal with it. Solardawn in response to your comments where you were worried far as trying to control stuff (see reply number 8) .... as far as I'm concerned all your posts and your behavior as a player in general is just fine.. same goes for darkalloy,blahness98 and Valaun (who runs Mintha the kender). Madelaine's a great player too when she's not going off the deep end as she is right now (in my opinion) |
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Post by Andre on May 14, 2011 21:01:27 GMT -5
Solardawn in response to your comments where you were worried far as trying to control stuff (see reply number 8) .... as far as I'm concerned all your posts and your behavior as a player in general is just fine.. same goes for darkalloy,blahness98 and Valaun (who runs Mintha the kender). Madelaine's a great player too when she's not going off the deep end as she is right now (in my opinion) I should expand on that a little bit more : - Serinda was originally conceived as a rather arrogant person to begin with, the "Silvanesti roots" as Darkalloy pointed out - this was solardawn's original concept for her as I recall ... so to me it totally makes sense that Serinda would become more "scary" in a sense ... Solardawn correct me if I"m wrong but you mentioned in "human terms" she's 18 years old? That's a very impressionable age - I can totally see how she'd start mimicking her lover's (Za'era's) behavior as a result ! One choice Serinda may have to make if Za'era continues to slide towards the dark side - do I stop Za'era if she goes "too far" or do I let her do what she feels she must out of love, even if it costs me my own morality? To put it another way if Za'era was about to administer a "mercy killing" on Gilthanas (see below) would Serinda have let Za'era do this? You've all probably noticed by now I take the "Good " part of the alignment I require for characters quite seriously - standing by and doing nothing while an evil act is committed is almost as bad as if you committed the evil act itself... I'm not saying Serinda necessarily WOULD have just stood there and watched mind you but solardawn something to keep in mind .. I do expect players to be good aligned in general so this could put Serinda in a somewhat awkward position in the future. - I hate to say it but darkalloy's comments are on the money as far as Za'era coming dangerously close to violating the whole paladin code in favor of acting closer to her Drow heritage... I've already mentioned several times " Don't kill enemy prisoners who have given up I expect good guys not to do that " .. I was hoping players would draw a few more logical conclusions from that but it looks like that's not happening in Za'era's case so I have to be a bit more specific... pushing the elven king's skeleton off the throne - ok not the most diplomatic thing to do but no harm done, not really hurting anyone... but in the azcot-za'era confrontation I mentioned above Madelaine sent me a PM saying Za'era was on the verge of killing Azcot ... killing a fellow PC because he licked you? Madelaine maintains she is extremely unlikely to do this sort of thing because she'll always make the will save she's imposed on herself not to kill someone... but here's my concern.. while I'm sure it's very Drow like behavior it's not " Good aligned PC" type behavior, at least as far as my definition of Good aligned PC's... Madelaine also mentioned she would have given Gilthanas a "mercy killing" when he was poisoned rather than letting him suffer... again no doubt a very Drow thing to do but I do find it morally questionable behavior for a paladin (Za'era is cross-classed as a paladin/cleric.. ) ... I think we're getting into a situation here where Madelaine's vision of her Drow heritage is beginning to interfere with the requirements for a good aligned PC. I've already warned Madelaine that if Za'era goes over the (moral) edge and turns evil that Za'era essentially becomes an NPC given my "Good aligned PC" requirement for the campaign - Madelaine's response has been she's ok with that. Or to put it another way if Za'era becomes evil aligned and thus an NPC so be it. Ok so Za'era wants Rin to RP Za'era out of Za'era going over to the "dark side" or she wants some other PC to do that.. I understand that, great RP'ing potential , good stuff ! But what worries me is when the PLAYER in question (Madelaine) gets mad at the other player in question (Darkalloy) for not RP'ing Rin's attempt to "help" Za'era so to speak... darkalloy is not a mind-reader Madelaine and neither am I ... even if you feel it's "clumsy" RP'ing in that you specifically have to ask a player to do this it can be resolved in a simple manner.. drop the player a PM stating something to the effect of " Za'era's beginning to veer towards the deep end - interested in RP'ing an attempt to steer her away from it with me?" Again this is a situation where Madelaline is identifying SO much with her character that she's becoming too upset, too angry , too often... Madelaline you are putting a rather heavy burden on darkalloy by automatically assuming he should have "clued in" on Za'era's current moral "slide" and tried to have Rin help Za'era out... I'll say it again - there are no mind-readers in the group and quite frankly it disturbs me that your expectations of BOTH the DM and the players are becoming unrealistically high . There's an easy solution to this Madelaine .. somehow try to find a way to put some distance between Madelaline the player and Za'era the character.. if you can succeed in doing this it will eliminate 90 percent of the problems you have with this campaign. |
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.. here was my reasoning.
