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Post by darkalloy on May 14, 2011 21:04:07 GMT -5
It's alright Andre, I mean truth be told every-time there is drama between us it gets me a bit upset and I do offer to kill of Rin. Don't like to see us fight, argue, etc. After all this is the best gaming group I have ever been with and well all most all the other drama we've had was partly/wholly Rin related... I mean there is an entire thread dedicated to Rin in the feedback here...two technically... Guess I kinda got used to it.
Anyway I guess I just got a little too upset with us doing this. I don't know if I was having overly emotional moment or if it was the fact that I still kinda feel rotten from bad Chinese I ate. Sorry for any drama I caused, but until we stop this argument I'm not exactly going to be thinking like I normally do, as I'll be afraid we'll break up this group... call me paranoid but I think the fact that I was kicked out of a in-person group because they wanted this one female player who wore basically nothing, might be why I get a bit upset if we start arguing.
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Post by Andre on May 14, 2011 22:45:00 GMT -5
Well hopefully the group doesn't break up - let an old gaming buddy of mine whom I've known for years who's also like my best friend know what was going on and he mentioned that mentioning her real life issues (surgery, employment situation et cet) on a gaming board was not cool - and he has a point ... so my apologies for that too ... he also had this to say : " Ok - just as a cultural note, the player in question is German. Germans get very touchy about bodily functions ... The word 'scheisse' (shit, in English) is one of the nastier things that you can say in German - much worse than the term is in English. So, you've probably hit a subconscious nerve in your player which might help explain her reaction to a certain extent" My friend dated a German girl for a long while on and off so I'm guessing his info is on the up and up although of course Madelaine would be the only one who can verify if I crossed a cultural line here.. so again I apologize. Basically I was rather irritated that something I regarded as a spur-of-the-moment decision that I thought would be humorous (obviously it wasn't from Madelaine's point of view) evinced such a negative reaction... basically my reaction was " Dude I so do NOT have time for this, working real hard on the campaign, juggling it with child-care for the 2 munchkins I do NOT need this drama ! " .. which is why I get so pissed when I see players making mountains out of what I see as a molehill - making a lot out of something I regard as a minor issue.. basically it's stress on my part speaking here. Having said that I still stand by my original points... while I apologize if her feelings are hurt I still feel Madelaine is being overly sensitive and that she is expecting both the DM and fellow players to be "mind-readers"... I brought up the personal stuff in her life is because I have a feeling she's using the campaign as a "vent" so to speak for the personal stuff going on in her life, an outlet ... which is going to create ALL sorts of complications. I cannot emphasize enough the need, however difficult it will be, for her to divorce Madelaine the player from Za'era the character or this is going to lead to serious problems. Worst case scenario here's what I see happening : - Madelaline gets really upset and leaves the campaign... she's obviously more than welcome to stay as a player but there's not much we can do to stop her if she leaves. Would prefer for her to stay in the campaign but that's pretty much up to her. - Valaun / Mintha the kender may get upset and leave as well given that Valaun is in a romantic relationship with Madelaline ... or Valaun may stay put , no idea. She does a FANTASTIC job of playing a kender and I'd hate to see her go but she may feel compelled to leave if Madelaine does out of a sense of loyalty to Madelaline and/or might get upset because Madelaine's upset... or not ... again no idea how that's going to play out. - other players (Blahness98 or Solardawn) will either stay or resign in protest ... I'm not saying that I EXPECT Blahness98 or Solardawn to leave , I bring it up because Flak (Sangrias ) leaving just like that out of protest when I had it out with Casdegere was unexpected on my part... or to put it another way you never know how other players are going to react if one player quits. (Although now that I think about it there were some warning signs on Flak's part too - he seemed annoyed when I took control of his familiar one game session and informed me that I wasn't going to do that and said " thanks for understanding" as if it was a decision already done and decided ... it's fine if he had that preference but I found myself blinking and thinking to myself , ' Um, familiar's are NPC's - isn't it a bit much telling the DM 'hands off ' ? ) Obviously I don't want to see blahness98 or solardawn go either, I've found solardawn to be a very reasonable player I've never had any problems with (same goes for darkalloy and Valaun hasn't really given me any issues) and while it's my first time DM'ing for blahness98 he's been a great player too, when blahness98 was a fellow player of mine in a game where another person DM'ed he was very easy to get along with in that situation as well. So basically it's a wait and see thing... I'm glad you feel this is the best gaming group you've been in darkalloy , I like this group too WHEN we don't have drama going on over what I see as minor stuff, power-struggles (by power struggles I'm referring to casdegere's need to control pretty much everything in the campaign - this was before your time with us blahness98 ) ... other DM's will probably be more sensitive to players when their feelings get hurt but quite frankly I'm not going to be that type of DM unless I think there's a very good reason said feelings are hurt. I don't have the time for it and my patience wears thin in situations like this. If you look at the posts on FG looking for players you'll see that the DM's often beg and plead for what they refer to as "mature" players.. I've taken that to mean players who DON'T make the game too personal to the point where they get ticked at fellow players and/or the DM over minor stuff, who can roll with the punches and just keep gaming without turning X , Y and Z into a federal case and.. again.. people who realize it's JUST A GAME and it's not the end of the world if your PC " loses" whether to another PC or to an NPC. That said, all I can do is apologize to Madelaine yet again at this point and wait to see what happens.. I will definitely be running Dragonlance Tues May 24th, all the current players are more than welcome to show up but if they don't I can't force them to. Madelaine may run the Drow campaign the following Tues May 31st or she might get upset enough to leave the group entirely - no idea. I will, regardless , run Dragonlance once every other week on Tuesdays no matter what the outcome here as long as enough players remain in order for me to run the campaign (a minimum of 3 players basically - obviously if we drop to 3 players I will do my best to try to recruit more and hope that they're up to snuff.... my preference however would be all the original players in the group right now remain in the first place) .
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Post by Andre on May 14, 2011 22:52:45 GMT -5
And btw for what it's worth I'll take a darkalloy over a scantily clad female any day no matter how close to naked she is ... you're an awesome player , their loss
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Post by darkalloy on May 14, 2011 23:28:09 GMT -5
Well it wasn't all bad on my farewell game I got the kiss in front of the other guys. In the end I felt like I won as the group didn't last long after that.... Geee... I wonder why.
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Post by madelaine on May 15, 2011 8:51:37 GMT -5
It is sad to see how your attacks become more and more personal instead to the point this thread was meant to be about and I wonder if I should start watching the FG boards in case you jump me there as well like you did with Caz.
Neither my private situation in RL nor my connection to my character have anything to do with this.
Instead of discussing the topic of the thread it now became your personal campaign against me as person. This is really sad.
More I do not have to say to this because we seem to discuss my life now instead of the roleplay and I decide not to participate in this.
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Post by Andre on May 15, 2011 10:02:37 GMT -5
(sighs)... next Dragonlance game is Tues May 24th, you're welcome to show up for the game or not, your choice Madelaine. I would prefer not to lose you as a player so no not going to " jump " you as I did Casdegere... as I mentioned in my above posts the majority of the time you're a great player, when you're not going off the emotional deep end.
And I disagree - your real life situation has a LOT to do with this.. you told me that the dream you all had with the PC's as chess pieces "hit home" with you and you brought up the betrayal in Germany by the person who was close to you .. you said the chess dream reminded you of that.. it was at that point Za'era the character started to lose hope in the gods .. I noticed at the same time Madelaine the player started to go a bit "sour" for lack of a better word... and you yourself have told me that when Za'era cries Madelaine the player cries, you regard Za'era as an extension of yourself and you apologize if that's too "wierd" for you et cetera... Most importantly harsh as this sounds you regard anything bad happening to Za'era as a personal attack on you the player whether it be myself or cadegere commiting the "sin" so to speak.
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Post by madelaine on May 15, 2011 18:10:01 GMT -5
I told you many of those things in private and by posting this now in the public makes me even more sad as it becomes even more personal by this. *sighs and shakes her head*
My connection to Za'era and myself nor my private life have anything to do with my issue I had in the last FG game. It has neither something to do with my impression of it being railroaded/scripted nor with the fact you crossed a line by shitting on characters.
With all respect I ask you to stop trying to hide those facts behind your tries to degrade me in the public.
If this does not stop I see no other way beside leaving the group because I do not deserve such a treatment. The choice is yours.
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Post by Andre on May 15, 2011 19:19:57 GMT -5
Madelaine you've announced this stuff out loud to pretty much anyone who listens on skype I've seen it myself ! That's why I felt at liberty to divulge it - if you wanted it kept private then I apologize but my experience in the past has been you share it with pretty much anyone who's willing to listen - you told casdegere something VERY personal in your first skype chat with him ever (basically you'd met the dude for the first time) which I would normally repeat here but apparently I'm not at liberty to do so... and I've listened to you tell other players as well about the personal stuff that you mentioned either via text or via voice on skype !
And with respect I completely disagree with the " my connection to Za'era and myself nor my private life have anything to do with my issue it had in the last FG game " .. it has EVERYTHING to do with it. If it didn't you wouldn't have blown this issue out of proportion the way that you have. You made it pretty obvious in your earlier post above when you stated I as a DM was figuratively going poo-poo on you the player - no sane RPG'er in their right mind would assume the DM REALLY wants to take a dump on the player in "real life" that's downright insane ! But that's pretty much what you're saying in post number 4 above, first page of this thread. Again you are showing a complete inability to separate Za'era the character from Madelaine the player - otherwise this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
Show up , not show up next dragonlance FG game session, your choice. You mentioned something about "With all respect I ask you to stop trying to hide those facts behind your tries to degrade me in the public" which I'm going to take to mean you want me to shut up about this topic - fine I'll shut up. Feel free to say whatever you want about it, I'll stay silent at this point.
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Post by madelaine on May 16, 2011 23:08:26 GMT -5
By your reply I see you still do not understand.
Which things I tell someone in private about myself and at which time is my personal decision. I prefer to keep this to be my decision. This said it again does not has anything to do with the main topic of the whole thread.
With all this behavior I am sorry to say that my time now has come to leave this campaign. I just simply do not want to play with you anymore Andre.
Maybe I will start another Drow campaign in FG at another time but I take the liberty to shut that one down as well.
I want to send a special thanks to Solardawn for the wonderful time roleplaying the relationship between the two characters and I wish you all well and a nice remaining time in the campaign.
I will not check this board anymore. If any of you want to talk to me feel free to send me a mail.
May Lloth guide your way.
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Post by darkalloy on May 17, 2011 0:01:58 GMT -5
Extra super crud....
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Post by Andre on May 17, 2011 8:20:29 GMT -5
While I'm sorry to see her go I have to say this doesn't come as a complete surprise... when she first joined the campaign Madelaine told me she's had issues with other gaming groups before because her character was, quote, " dramatic" and she told me to advise her if her character was becoming overly so ... I saw the warning signs with the Za'era-Azcot incident (Azcot licking Za'era) when I asked Madelaine not to take in-game stuff so personally and she responded with the comment " I (the player, Madelaine) cry when my character cries - sorry if that's too strange for you"... if a player cannot separate herself from her character - which I believe is what Madelaine was referring to as her "private stuff " - then she's simply not going to last in this campaign , nor any RPG for that matter, in the long run. When a player declares that her character is going to be apathetic, unresponsive and not participate in the campaign since she regards her character as a "chess piece" for the DM to shove around (which is basically what she said to me in an e-mail she sent me ).. basically the player is saying she doesn't want to participate... and as much as I hate to say it if you're not going to be active in the campaign what's the point of being in it in the first place? I haven't heard a word from Valaun (Mintha the kender) since this entire thing started and she still has yet to reply to any of my e-mails... given that she's in a romantic relationship with Madelaline I'm sorry to say that we've probably lost her too ... my guess is that if Valaun continued in a campaign Madelaine feels offended by , Madelaine would probably take it the wrong way ....I'd love to see her stay but... I think at this point it's probably best to assume a worst case scenario in Valaun's case and move from that assumption. Again however I did see this coming ... I conferred with solardawn, blahness98 and darkalloy privately and all three of you said you would stay in the campaign even if Madelaine left and even if she took Valaun with her (NOT a concerted effort on my part to get rid of Madelaine swear to god - more along the lines of I saw the writing on the wall since the azcot-Za'era-licking incident but ignored it hoping we could keep Madelaine long term anyways, but...) .. While 3 players is enough to run a campaign in my opinion obviously it would be nice having more than 3 ... I've put up a thread on FG , guild house, to solicit additional players but if any of you know a good player free and looking for a Tues night game by all means let me know ! Solardawn had mentioned the possibility of running a once-a-month FG game , let me know what you think solardawn ... I MAY change the dragonlance campaign to 3 times a month as opposed to once every 2 weeks (with Solardawn's campaign filling in the remaining Tues in the month if he ends up being able to run one ) ... The good news is we can put this melodrama behind us and move forward.. far as I'm concerned I have 3 remaining solid, excellent RP'ers who have never given me (nor the other players in the campaign for that matter) any problems and who have the maturity level I'm looking for - awesome stuff !
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Post by blahness98 on May 17, 2011 8:42:11 GMT -5
Andre,
Remember how I said that the comments are getting more pointed? Once again it appears that you are taking a dagger to two players now. Granted I don't know all the events that had led to this point, but, seriously both of you need to take a fucking step back and look from each others points of view.
This entire thread started as a DM asking if he went too far with something. One player thought so and another thought the entire session was a waste of time. Fine. That's all that was needed to be said. The only problem was with the way the question was asked. Instead of saying something like, "I think I may have gone too far with the dragon shitting on a few player characters. Does anyone feel like I..." From the get go, Madelaine was on the defensive from the beginning. Then the threads going back and forth were more and more pointed. Instead of working together to fix the situation, the personal attacks continued back and forth. The question I ask is, haven't you had a character that you put so much time an energy into that that character becomes a part of you? I know I have. It makes for a better character.
This is just a game and if something that happens in game pisses you off, let the DM know. In this case the player did, but the entire way the situation was handed got out of control. Like I said, I don't know the drama that happened before, but, seriously? I believe that if the main parties involved in this hadn't immediately gone defensive, we would still have a full group. Feelings would not be hurt and while there may have been some anger between the DM and the player, they could push beyond that.
Flame me, rip my post apart, I don't give a shit. This is my opinion on the matter and I had to get it off my chest. I don't want to take sides when I am the new guy here. I am just pointing out what I see.
And I truly am saddened that I would not be able to RP with Za'era. Andre had a good plot line for us, and I really wished that we could have done it. Za'era would have had another person to look out for her and possibly become her friend.
See you all on the 24th. I'm not responding to this thread anymore.
And someone mail this to Madelaine, I don't have her email and she state she wasn't coming back. And next time, leave out the fact you are talking to others players in private. Once again, it looks like you are forcing the other person out.
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Post by Andre on May 17, 2011 9:02:46 GMT -5
(sent a copy of this post to Blahness98 via e-mail)
Ok.. first off I sincerely apologize for posting the fact I was talking to the other players in private I didn't know you would have an objection to that.. I get that you are upset with both me and Madelaine and I respect that .... but to be fair , honest to god I wasn't trying to force her out - I did mention several times in the posts above that I'd prefer not to see her go ... I've updated my post since the last time you read it with some additional info that may or may not make a difference to you.. but again I apologize for upsetting you.. you're a great player so I'm especially concerned about your opinion.
And I apologize if this came across as a personal attack on Valaun - it was not intended that way ! Basically I was just stating a worst case scenario ... look at it from Valaun's point of view... her lover drops out of a campaign that said lover feels very offended by and Valaun continues to stay in it ? Imagine what Madelaine's response to Valaun would be at that point ! Basically I'm saying while I'd LOVE to have Valaun say I don't think it's very realistic to assume Valaun will WANT to be in the campaign at this point... I basically sent her a "heads up" e-mail saying while I'd love for her to stay in the group it's totally understandable if she drops out given the situation with Madelaine.. or to put it another way, husband and wife are in a campaign.. wife has a REAL problem with the DM and drops out.. isn't it at least possible the husband will drop out too in support of the wife? Basically I'm saying "worst case scenario since the wife dropped out the husband will probably leave us too".. so I apologize if it looked like I was taking a dagger to Valaun but that wasn't the intent, honest !
In the (highly unlikely I think at this point) event Madelaline does decide to return to the group I will of course let her rejoin the campaign...
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Post by sargt on May 17, 2011 14:09:07 GMT -5
I am really saddened and frustrated by all these events. First of all, please don't make assumptions that my issues have anything to do with my girlfriend. After all, you threatened to kick me from the game after my very first session because I asked you not to do something and said it annoyed me. Apparently this was not the maturity level you were looking for.
I've refrained from commenting because of what would be presumed bias, but I think you do railroad stuff. There are many ways to handle when characters go off story and I don't like how you handle when they do. Claiming you want to keep close to the plot of the books makes little sense when both Gilthas and Laurana were completely unrecognizable to me when I started playing, among other things. If people going off story is too much trouble to you you should be writting a book, not GMing a campaign.
I don't like mail for my girlfriend or other players forwarded to me, I don't think it was appropriate to send blahness' Madelaine's private email without her permission and I don't care to hear the half-hearted appologies about behaviour you should really know better than to do. You seem to enjoy playing other people's characters for them and assuming about other people's players as well.
I joined this game because Madelaine thought very highly of you, Andre.
Stop assuming my issues with you have anything to do with her. The only reason I've not brought them up before is the one time I did I got attacked and threatened. I can only assume you'll happily turn our characters into evil NPCs like the last folks who left.
Please don't email me again.
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Post by solardawn on May 17, 2011 15:12:09 GMT -5
Can't believe I never noticed how much anger was brewing behind the scenes.. Starting to sound like me and Dark were the only ones actually having fun.
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