The Rin situation

[madelaine]

I agree on this and as every action results in a reaction Rin should be prepared for some reaction as Azcot should be for his attack on Rin. I would just not like to see Azcot grapple him and Rin always being able to say "let me go" and Azcot looses all his benefits because he has to let go. This would make Rin being able to get out of all troubles and no need to fear any retaliation anymore.

As I said. I like the aspect of equality and deny the total domination idea.

If Rin would start to abuse his ability then Za'era definitely would interfere. Same with Azcot. Still I think we should work this out IN CHARACTER before this happens.

[casdegere]

Well, Rin's abilities require that he be able to speak and be heard. IN a Grapple it is Azcot's choice to hold his beak closed if he so chooses. But Rin is very slippery creature. Its not a guarantee he can maintain a grapple for to long and I am certian Eolaer will interfere if he did grab Rin. Which might spark even more unrest in the ranks! Pfft, I should have made a monk, lol!

[darkalloy]

No Rin's kinda screwed when Azcot grapples him. Rin has to get a nat. 20 and Azcot a nat. 1 for Rin to escape from a grapple.

[flak]

Sorta the same thing that Sangrias was nailed with. He has a better chance than the bird, but not by much.

Either way, hurry up with the thread-makin, Rin. Sangrias is out trying to nap in the woods, away from everyone except the damned familiars.

[darkalloy]

I'm sorry.... T.T It's Still being Evil.... Anyone think they could Do a copy>paste of my post? I think Proboards is mad at me for leaving it on most of the time.

[flak]

Done. I've done a little bit of editing and revision to make it flow a bit easier.

And Sangrias is probably out like a light. He likes sleeping in if he can.

[casdegere]

(Just posting what Andre emailed everyone as Proboards has been difficult lately)

I've read the latest posts on the "situation with Rin" thread from earlier on... and found myself getting even angrier than I was before, the more and more I thought about this situation... proboards is down right now... after typing out my response I thought to myself " Maybe I should wait until proboards comes back up before posting this.. " But you know what? I'm not going to .. I am SO angry I am going to e-mail this right now to everyone who would normally see this on the forums. When proboards comes up I will copy and paste this into the forum more than likely.

So here's the casdegere quote :

" As I said in another post, I do not mind Rin using his abilities on Azcot. Azcot had it coming but such things can have dire consequences that have to be dealt with. I do not think its reasonable to completely "mindrape" someone then walk away without fear of reprisal. I as a player do not want to break up the group either over something so trivial. The other option is that when such power is used against a player, the game needs to slow down a little in order to resolve the moment of contention. Such integral conflicts should be important to everyone in the group. Everyone's lives depends on each other and so much is at stake. I'm not sure if rolling with it is always going to be in character. Definately not for Azcot. "

And here's my response :

Ok folks a few points I"m going to make here as the DM.. I've been thinking about this all day ...

Rin making magical Suggestions did not become an issue until casdegere made it an issue. He can say " I don't mind Rin using his powers on Azcot" until he's blue in the face but if casdegere's response to being suggested by Rin is to post something to the effect that spellcasters are too powerful compared to fighters and need to be contained - as far as I'm concerned casdegere is pissed. Sorry casdegere but I'm not 100 percent sure you're telling the truth here. The DM is DEFINITELY pissed off at casdegere right now but more on this later.

Reading the above posts it seems apparent that everyone else... flak (sangrias), madelaine (Za'era) , solardawn (Serinda) .. does not have an issue as a player with Rin's suggestions.. the PC's may get ticked and get into it with Rin, but casdegere is the only one who, AS A PLAYER (and again I'm not backing down on this casdegere - far as I'm concerned Steve the player is pissed ) has a real issue with this. I suspect the reason for this is.. and again casdegere this should indicate to you in no uncertain terms how pissed off the DM is at you right now.. the other players have a maturity that casdegere lacks... in other words even if the PC's are pissed the players aren't getting bent out of shape about it. In other words they realize everything isn't always going to go their way. It's a GAME people, why is everyone getting so upset if an imaginary player character bests another imaginary player character somehow? If you are bested somehow I expect a mature reaction from a player , a wry chuckle and a muttered " You got me good - but I'll get you back next time" comment and an endeavor to do so (in a non-lethal fashion ) WITHOUT making a federal case out of it or worrying about whether or not the PC's are getting along - there has been NO lethal combat here and I expect a certain amount of friction between PC's, not players walking on eggshells afraid to role play, regardless of what casdegere has to say about it. Again there's a certain amount of maturity I expect from my players not a "whose penis is bigger" contest.

Look, any RPG involves a LOT of subjective stuff that's open to interpretation and eventually the DM is going to rule in a way you don't agree with ... but part of being a mature adult is , yes casdegere, "rolling with it " ... Again it's a GAME ... if a child playing cops and robbers pouts every time the game doesn't go his way he tends to spoil the game for everyone else. As far as I'm concerned D and D is , in a sense, an elaborate game of cops and robbers - and as far as I'm concerned right now you're definitely spoiling it for me and other players as well.

Look at the comments casdegere has made on the forum, on skype and in whispers to me since he joined the group. Initially he made a comment about how Rin is not supposed to be in the frontline with the combatants and should be behind the front lines with the spellcasters but he was sure rin would learn as time went on. Ok fine, casdegere warned us he was blunt.. but after apologizing for being out of line on that one casdegere made ANOTHER comment about Rin in skype to the effect that he feels bards should be much more supportive. In-game Azcot blocked PC's from getting past him in a corridor using his bulk to do so.. in-game when Azcot squeezed Rin's current lover into unconsciousness and was victimized by a suggestion spell (which , yes I agree casdegere, Azcot had coming) casdegere responded with a post about spell casters being too powerful and fighters being underpowered. In the last FG game session casdegere sent me a whisper saying, quote, " I'd like you to have the spellcasters start declaring they are casting defensively before rolling "... a player tellling the DM how to run his game? As far as I'm concerned casdegere is coming off as a control freak and I don't like it one bit. If the campaign bothers you THAT much casdegere why not go off and start one that meets up to your lofty expectations?

Casdegere I do NOT appreciate your actions and I do NOT appreciate you coming in and "upsetting the apple cart" as it were.. I put a lot of work into this campaign and quite frankly I am NOT happy about the possibility of the whole campaign crashing down simply because things are not going Azcot's way. Look, every DM has their own style.. if you're not happy with mine feel free to leave. I RESENT the time I am spending here arguing with casdegere about this on the forums - I went through the same thing with nydhog (Eolaer) and Reika over alignment restrictions and eventually got sick and tired of arguing the same points over and over with them. Both players eventually came around but they would have been within their rights not to if the campaign wasn't their cup of tea. Same applies to casdegere. Right now however I have to say I am not happy about wasting time typing this that could be spent going through chat logs so I can award XP/RP so I can go on to work on fun subplots for the players instead of this garbage. Is it ok if players voice disagreement with the DM and open up a discussion? Yes of course it is... it's just the immaturity on casdegere's part that is really, REALLY ticking me off right now .... if you want to have a dialogue have it over something important not " I'm pissed because things didn't go my character's way".

Everyone else.. forgive the tirade. Rest assured that I do not plan on going off on you the same way I did with casdegere just now ... as I mentioned above I think the rest of you have a certain maturity that casdegere lacks at this point. Still to give credit where credit is due, casdegere (when he's not upset that things aren't going his way) is a very good RP'er, a fine one and very active in the group and on the boards as far as starting discussions so I'll give him that. If we can get past the " Azcot always has to win" situation I see casdegere as a keeper - IF we can get past that.

So casdegere, without arguing forever with me about X Y and Z points (mainly because as a DM I am FED UP about this and don't want to argue with you any more about it) .. which is it going to be? Can you live with the dragonlance campaign as is or do you want out?

[darkalloy]

Doesn't look my mass email/Pm, went through. Pro-boards is suffering a DDoS attack and as such we may not be able to post easily or even be able to access the forum from time to time.

Also... Wow Andre did take the textwall feat. It's gonna take me a bit to read as I keep hacking and coughing and losing my place..... Like I did just now.

[casdegere]

I guess all I can say is I am willing to give it another shot if everyone else agrees they are willing to let me try.

[darkalloy]

Finally got it done read... it's amazing what effect 4 Ricola's at once have. Anyway I'm fine with giving Cas another shot... Wow that sounds mean on my part considering I hadn't thought about him even leaving or anything of the like.

[solardawn]

I never really thought for a moment Cas had any ill intentions, and I didn't realize how much it bothered Andre till i read his e-mail. Me personally, I like everyone in our little group and I'd hate to see us loose anyone. So hopefully you two can work it out.

[Andre]

All right, tirade is out of my system now... here's what I see needing to take place if casdegere wants to continue running Azcot in the dragonlance game :

1) casdegere needs to stop telling darkalloy (or any other player for that matter) what to do with their character. There's "blunt" as casdegere warned us he would be.... and then there's downright controlling. As far as I'm concerned casdegere is leaning dangerously close towards "controlling". No more comments like " a bard doesn't belong in the front lines with other fighters" and " I figured a bard would be much more supportive"... NONE of the other players have told anyone else what to do with their PC's until casdegere joined the group... I would like to keep it that way.

2) casdegere has to start accepting defeat gracefully .... if Rin somehow magically ordered Azcot to inflict lethal damage on himself or ordered Azcot to do something resulting in monetary loss ( " Hand over that great big flaming sword of yours so I can sell it " ) I can see why casdegere might be tempted to post stuff like the following :

" (casdegere says ) Game Tactics:

I understand bogging everything down with game rules can get cumbersome and take away from the fun factor of the game for the players and the GM. However, considering how rare magic appears to be in this particular campaign I think it might bring a new element if some of the original rules were put in place when it comes to spell casting. Examples:

As a caster: Declaring casting defensively before making the casting attempt when foes are nearby the caster. Forgetting to do this can come with dire consequences as I feel it should. I do not wish to see our casters injured but if I fighter forgot to draw his sword, he might find himself in trouble also.

Making the appropriate Concentration checks when damage has been sustained.

Eshew Materials is a very handy feat but also a costly one due to the fact that casters do not get alot of feats. However, materials need to be obtained and being in a magic lite environment should make finding these materials extremely difficult and expensive.

Magic is extremely powerful as Rin showed Azcot. Azcot did not like being helpless to a simple, effortless suggestion. If such power is to be wielded, it should come at a cost and difficulty.

Being a fighter means being very susteptable to spells. Though Azcot is formidable in combat he pays for this by putting himself in harms way by standing toe to toe with the enemy. Weapons and Armor can be taken from him or lost..."

Or to start sending whispers to me on FG like " you're being FAR too nice to the spell casters" and " I'd like you to start telling the casters to say they're casting defensively before they cast spells" IF Rin ordered Azcot to do something resulting in lethal damage and/or resulting in loss of material possessions by Azcot. But Azcot was ordered to SIT ON HIS HANDS ! More annoying to Azcot than harmful really. If a spellcaster gets the drop on you and you fai your save something bad is going to happen - deal with it and move on. Again this goes back to the issue of maturity on the player's part and accepting defeat gracefully, as opposed to turning it into a rearrange-the-campaign power struggle so your character can come out on top.

If casdegere can accept these two conditions then I'm fine with him staying in the campaign... when it doesn't devolve into this power struggle BS casdegere is actually a very good player, both in the RP sense and in terms of promoting group discussions - AS LONG AS SAID GROUP DISCUSSIONS DON'T INVOLVE TELLING OTHER PLAYERS OR THE DM WHAT TO DO . Feedback is fine, casdegere just needs to start toning it down. A lot.

As far as the allegations of Rin "mind-raping" people... look over the Suggestion spell description again:

www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm

"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

While "reasonable" is a rather elastic term, " harmful" is pretty clear cut. I seriously doubt Rin's going to tell Azcot (or anyone else for that matter) to do something that will cause lethal damage to the PC in question but even if darkalloy was to turn into an evil psychopath overnight and start trying to pick off his fellow player characters with this spell one by one, I wouldn't allow it as a DM ... and I've already stated that Rin can't use the spell (or bardic ability of the same name for that matter) to make people part with their material possessions. Basically Rin is retaliating by annoying PC's. What's the big deal? Were Rin and I in the same campaign, if Rin used this tactic against my PC... ESPECIALLY if my PC had it coming, I would probably have voluntarily had my PC go above and beyond whatever Rin suggested 1) to make the game more fun and entertaining for my fellow players and 2) because I like to think of myself as a MATURE ADULT , I as a player don't get bent out of shape when my PC is embarrassed, humiliated et cetera .. IT'S JUST A GAME PEOPLE ! If I can do it so can you. Remember that Azcot squeezed Sunstar, Rin's barbarian lover, into unconsciousness.. it's just fine Azcot did so by the way, she had it coming but more on that later... but whiny-baby complaining about Rin taking action against Azcot as a result annoys the hell out of me.

If Azcot retaliates by getting the drop on Rin, squeezing him into unconsciousness with non-lethal damage and depositing him into the nearest dung heap for when he wakes up that's ok... basically if Rin gets the drop on Azcot first (makes the initiative roll which it looks like I have to enforce) Rin will more than likely " win ".. if Azcot gets the drop on Azcot first Azcot will more than likely "win". This is also ok - as long as the players involved don't get bent out of shape over it. People are probably sick of me saying this but I'll repeat it for the third time in this post - IT'S JUST A GAME FOLKS ! If I as a DM was constantly steamrollering your PC's with unbeatable opponents I can see why you'd be upset with me.. in the case of a PC "triumphing" over you in a non-lethal-damage fashion that doesn't involve you losing any material possessions... accept it, plot (non lethal) revenge that takes place either immediately or at a later date, and move on. Likewise if you rough up an NPC who is close to a PC , expect retaliation (of a NON LETHAL sort). Sunstar has a big mouth and she totally had it coming... squeezing her into unconsciousness was good RP'ing as far as I'm concerned on Azcot's part. Rin getting pissed at Azcot and using suggestion on him after he put the squeeze on Rin's lover is also good RPing as far as I'm concerned on Rin's part.. I , as a DM, fully expect all of you as players not to get bent out of shape over this when your PC's try to one-up each other like this. You are fully capable of this as grown adults if you simply set your mind to it - if you find yourself unable to do that then this is not the campaign for you. I'll say it a fourth time - IT'S JUST A GAME ! Stop taking imaginary defeats so personally.

Flak runs Enya'ra in the drow campaign, I run Chalzin... you all might recall the forum activity where Enya'ra beat the crap out of Chalzin.. twice ! You don't see me complaining about the sneak attack damage Enya'ra used on me in fight number two - I'm not complaining about how it makes her "too powerful" as a rogue. In the second fight on the forums Enya'ra whacked Chalzin for lethal damage when the fight started out - and still not a word of complaint from me (once Chalzin started taunting Enya'ra about hiding behind her weapons Enya'ra moved on to non-lethal damage - kudo's to Flak by the way for not killing off a fellow PC. Flak COULD have said " Hell with this Enya'ra is a homicidal maniac she's going to kill Chalzin.. but Flak didn't, he sees the big picture and the possibilty of players getting upset if their PC is killed off, a different ball of wax alltogether... again this goes back to players being MATURE about the whole thing, which Flak is) ... I'm actually enjoying the conflict between Chalzin and Enya'ra. I'm certainly not getting bent out of shape about it as a player because Enya'ra beat Chalzin, and twice at that. Chalzin is attempting to provoke a third , non lethal, brawl with Enya'ra.. should Enya'ra win again, as she very well might, I as a player will accept defeat gracefully.. I am NOT going to decide that Chalzin HAS to kill Enya'ra for this "insult"... Hopefully casdegere realizes what I'm driving at by now.. if you run a PC that HAS to kill another PC who keeps "insulting his honor" so to speak you're going to have a problem... having Azcot get pissed is totally fine, but using your PC's personality as an excuse to kill another one isn't, at least in my campaign. Casdegere has warned us several times about "repercussions" for Rin's behavior... I certainly hope he is not referring to lethal damage type action taken against Rin... Azcot hasn't resorted to lethal damage against even evil foes yet so hopefully this doesn't become an issue but I'm just putting it out there so everyone knows.

But as long as it's non-lethal damage and as long as you're not ripping off each other's stuff.. don't be afraid of conflict with your fellow PC's either. The LAST thing I want is a campaign where everyone's walking around on eggshells afraid of an argument with another PC - it hampers role playing and results in bland, uninteresting PC behavior.

On the other hand casdegere makes a good point.. it IS possible to role play yourself into a corner and say " Well my PC's personality requires I tell all the other PC's to kiss my ass and then abandon them". Don't fall into that trap either. As far as I'm concerned ALL the players here have the ability to RP conflict with each other's PC's without your PC abandoning the group as a whole, you just need to put your mind to it. If you'd like your PC to sit down and RP out his or her differences with other PC's in the forum fantastic, that falls into the category of "good role playing" just as much as conflicts do, I award RP points for both types of behavior... Don't be afraid of conflict but make it "controlled" conflict if you have to in order to avoid breaking up the group, and feel free to RP arguing PC's coming to some sort of peace if you like and/or if you feel it's necessary.

[Andre]

I should update the post on stealing material possessions above a bit further, another player brought up a good point.. here's a copy and paste of the PM I sent to said player :

" My rogue, Sehlia, is fond of using sleight of hand to steal stuff from evil NPC's or a neutral NPC who's being a real prick if it won't result in severe financial hardship to the NPC in question , otherwise she's not likely to keep it... she is fond however of doing that to other PC's and , the moment right after she steals it, triumphantly producing it and gloating " Oh (fill in PC's name here) you dropped this ! " Basically just taunting them .. as long as you're not stealing something of big monetary value, not stealing a magic item or not stealing something that will hamper them in combat like a weapon you're fine.. or you can even steal it then a moment later offer it to them with a taunt and a grin ... annoying PC's rather than putting them into genuine finanical hardship and/or physical danger is totally ok in other words ...

For example look at Enya'ra in the Drow campaign.. she took Chalzin's stuff (which chalzin totally had coming btw ) when she knocked Chalzin out cold.. but returned it to Chalzin when Chalzin reluctantly apologized (I THINK she apologized someone needs to refresh my memory) and pointed out without her weapons and armor Chalzin would probably die weakening the group as a whole.. More annoyance than genuine hardship.. THAT kind of stuff is ok far as I'm concerned.

[casdegere]

I have said I am willing to try and tone it down and Rin and I have been speaking off the forums about the "Suggestion" and other topics.

I believe it would have been better for you Andre to tell me I was making you angry or doing something someone else complains to you about when the situation came up. Not spilling it all out in the open, including the whispers I made to you. Letting this bottle up like this obviously has taken its toll.

I am more of a serious kind of RPer where the rules, every game like this does have rules, were strongly enforced and making a small mistake was all a GM needed to make a PC pay for it. And where acting against a PC was almost always discussed between the parties before it was done. This was for several reasons. One being that it was agreed upon and the other was so that a more interesting result could be cooberated upon.

That said I can take a shilacking when I know I deserve it and this is a case where I feel I really do. It helps me know I am being an overbearing ass but having it delivered as a Weapon of Mass Destruction...I do not know if I deserved that.

[Andre]

all right kudo's to casdegere for gracefully accepting my tirade here ... I noticed he posted that he was willing to give the campaign another shot if everyone else was willing to give him a shot at 7:32 am proboard-time this morning then went on to post in the RP section here afterwards at 9 something am..

whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=forumroleplay&action=display&thread=444&page=1

which is an admirable show of faith and good sportsmanship on casdegere's part I admire that. I also apologize for losing my temper and yes I should not have bottled it up .. and yes I will admit that the angry tirade was indeed delivered as a weapon of mass destruction.... however I am sticking by the guidelines mentioned in the post on this thread earlier on (today Jan 6th at 11 am proboard time if anyone is wondering which post I'm referring to, just want to make sure everything's crystal clear here) ... Those guidelines apply to EVERYONE by the way, not that anyone else has put me in a situation where I have to point out their behavior in particular... but again just making it clear so we're all on board here. As long as casdegere can live with them (and I'm going to interpret his post above as saying that he can) we're good.

However I don't see the dragonlance campaign becoming one where rules are "strongly enforced" (by this I mean getting bogged/slowed down in what I consider to be "rules lawyer" stuff ) to the point where " making a small mistake was all a GM needed tomake a PC pay for it " ... and I don't see this becoming a campaign where " acting against a PC was alomst always discussed between the parties before it was done.. for several reasons. One being that it was agreed upon" either.. again it's going to slow things down WAY too much - if the players exercise the ability we ALL have as adults and act mature about it (that is not take it so personally when your PC is "defeated" in the non-lethal , non-having-all-your-stuff-taken-away manner I described above) we don't need to do the whole elaborate "is this going to be ok with everyone" pre-planning thing first. I suspect that casdegere is not stating what he expects this particular campaign to be by those statements and he's more so describing his viewpoint in terms of campaigns he's been in and run in the past and what he was expecting as a player. But I'm still putting it out there in the open so everyone knows what my expectations are on the matter.

I would like to go ahead and "close out" this issue on the forums so I can get back to reviewing chat logs, awarding XP/RP and working on the fun subplot type stuff in the campaign. Everyone ok with that?