Feats

[madelaine]

I told you Za'eras point of view and you told me Azcots point of view.
We will see where it will lead to if at all.

[solardawn]

I can understand being frustrated. There was a lot going on last time concerning rules.
I can also understand feeling frustrated if you feel like your character is left behind.


And I do think you do a lot of great roleplaying, you've put a great deal of effort into Za'era, I think you can be proud of Za'era and yourself. I enjoy playing with you and I enjoy reading everything Za'era does.

And I like to think Andre will be more then happy to talk to you about it, in great lengths. (Whether you want him to or not) and work out a solution.

That said, I personally don't feel the proper solution is to bend the rules in order to accomplish that. Because I think once we go down that path it's a quick spiral down to free-form.

Once you establish that you're willing to bend the rules for your best roleplayer. What happens when there's another conflict, and two of your best roleplayers both need you to bend the rules. Whoever has the most roleplaying points wins? That feels really wrong to me.

I really think that if you're unhappy with things, that's a serious concern, and should be to all of us. (Though I think it is)
I guess I just hope for my personal interest that it can be made better without changing the rules.

I just want to add that I do think roleplaying is important above everything else. Which may seem like a contradiction, because I like sticking to the rules so much.
But that's just because I have such a bad experience with free-form.
I was part of this big Vampire the Masquerade thing a few years back, spend 6 months of my life there.
I had to make a new character 4 times, because they kept killing off character into which I had put a LOT of work. And then they got killed off by some demi-god, half-werewolf, half-vampire, half manbearpig that was completely impossible to kill. Even though we were all supposed to play neonates.
And since I refused to drop down to that level and pretend I had powers I had absolutely no business having, I kept dying in gruesome ways with no chance of saving myself.

That experience really jaded me towards free-form. So to me, the rules are actually safeguard.
The rules make me feel safe because at least then I know what's happening. The more the rules are bend, the more frightened I become that half-abomination ultra-ninja's start popping up again around every corner to kill me.

The Irony is. I think Madelaine is feeling exactly the same, like everyone else has all the power and if you try to go against it, it's like walking into a brick wall. Which is the same way i felt in free-form. And so I do understand, because that feeling of helplessness is a really bad feeling.
But I still think we can find a way to keep everyone happy.

Lastly I do admit I try to make Serinda an effective and fairly powerful mage, I try to think of good spell combo's, good feats that go together and sometimes I just take what seems cool and what feels right for my character.
But never in order to put that to use against other player characters, I like my character to be good sure, but only against the NPC's Andre put's against us.
So far I don't think Serinda has had to take any action against another PC that involved even rolling initiative and I'll be glad if it stays that way.

[Andre]

Jan 19, 2011 16:52:40 GMT -5 @madelaine said:

First:
I have to say that it would be nice to talk to me first before making a final ruling and offer me to take back the divine metamagic feat for 100RP. Especially since my whole character is based on this ability. So running around with over 60 turn undeads but having no use for them because of the final ruling but (yay) being allowed to take back the one single feat is kind of .. uhm ... well... decide on your own.

I am sorry. I am really sad to see that I tried to play a character with a LOT of RP background and even tons of flaws and not caring about stats and skills and merits so much but feeling kind of left behind because of some people seem to try to squeeze every single advantage out of the system they can get but then point fingers and whine if there is someone doing the same and suddenly have a chance to oneshot their character as well.

It is not that my character with her skills and feats came totally out of the blue. I communicated and discussed everything with Andre upfront and now suddenly things are turned upside down because I dared to confront a player character.

If the final say will be "the build is fun but useless but hey... you can take back that one feat if you want" then I have to say that I will simply burn the charactersheet.

I am disappointed... Seriously disappointed... Not about the situation of my character alone but the behavior of some people as well. I am really sorry to say so.

Ok ok (waves hands for people to calm down ), Madelaine you're reading WAY too much into this and making far too many assumptions ....

First off ... I do admit that I totally did NOT do the research on these feats the way I should have... this is actually a common thing Madelaine in gaming, DM's such as myself who aren't as knowledgeable with all the WOTC books as they should be will initially think something is ok then realize it's not later on when the rules are examined more closely.... the reason I examined this so closely now is that is being able to make any cleric spell you like effective for 24 hours would make a character EXTREMELY powerful, much more so than Rin with his potent Suggestions or Azcot with his general ability to kick ass... it's a big pain in the butt I know but if you go back and re-read the rules quotes I put up there hopefully you'll be able to follow it ... I put a lot of research into that hoping you'd read it and not be upset when you saw all my sources but it looks like you're upset anyways, which I apologize for... but seriously that IS what's mentioned in the Persistent feat description, just touch or fixed range spells ... I blame WOTC for not making the "fixed range" description more clear ... I had to do a heck of a lot of research myself before figuring out what the heck " fixed range " means.

Second, my concern is not over Za'era confronting Azcot and more so the potential for any cleric spell to last 24 hours... Casdegere did not complain to me if that's what you're thinking... if you go back and look at the chat logs (which I'll be e-mailing to people when I get the chance) it says right on there that Azcot put up no protest whatsoever and didn't try to stop her when she cast Hold Person on him... he did make a will save but he didn't take the attack of opportunity he could have on her once she started casting her spell.

Third, I'm the first one to admit things can get VERY jumbled and confused with all these rules.. but the reason they exist is to make sense out of a game that,otherwise,would be total chaos.. there's just so MUCH going on in any D and D campaign that the rules are needed to make sense out of it, to bring order to the chaos if you will.. otherwise it's difficult to run the game in the first place.

Again this is my fault for not examining the rules more closely to begin with, especially given that Madelaine did PM me about thsi beforehand (I didn't take into account just how potent this feat could be until the hold person incident) ... again it's often the case that the DM (and other players) end up not understanding the full impact of the rules until they come up in an FG game session .... in this case a cleric who can make any spell last 24 hours including offensive ones would, simply put, be too powerful for the campaign ... it slipped by my notice until now since the spells it was used for so far were curative/defensive spells but my concern here is NOT over it being used to target Azcot and more so the impact it could have on NPC and PC alike.

Clerics still have the potential to be quite powerful in their own right without tilting the game to the point where characters grow a bit too powerful .... I'd have the same issue with spells affecting a personal target - whether that target be a PC or NPC so no it's not an issue of Za'era "upstaging" Azcot behind this - lasting 24 hours if it was say Serinda or Rin casting it, unless the spell is listed as such in the spell description... bear in mind the wizards of the coast people play-test all these rules and at least try to make an attempt to keep the game balanced, there's a reason for them. There are all sorts of "buff" spells Za'era can cast on herself rather than Eolaer ... there are feats you can take such as power attack that are very effective when used in combination with bull's strength,divine favor et cetera .... you could combine divine metamagic with the "quicken" feat so you can fire those spells off quickly in combat.. you could take the weapon focus feat, you could start making called shots to people's anatomy with the bonuses on your attack rolls you'd get from clericals spells that " buff " you like divine favor and bull's strength - combine it with power attack and you become VERY powerful ! ...

There are, basically, other ways for Za'era to kick ass other than using the Persistent feat the way we were doing it before... and YES by all means feel free to mine the rules to look for ways to make your character more powerful, as long as it's from an official WOTC book that's fine.. but I do have to stick by the rules interpretations WOTC gives us for the most part from said books, albeit belatedly in this case since the DM didn't realize until now what was going on (again my fault). If you were to ask darkalloy or casdegere they could probably list all the rulebooks and page numbers they're drawing their feats and what not from ... Rin's putting lots of RP points into Charisma to increase the potency of his spells, perhaps you could take the RP points out of extra turning and put them into Wisdom increases instead? (to increase the difficulty class opponents have to save against)... Heck if the group as a whole wants to list cool feats clerics can take feel free to start posting them here ! I assure you, being able to burn turn attempts to cast metamagic spells that she'd normally have to wait until being a higher level cleric to cast - that's plenty powerful in and by itself ! Basically you could make a spell heightened, quickened, maximized et cetera if you take divine metamagic enough times and burn turning attempts until you are able to cast what amounts to say an 8th level spell simply by burning turning attempts - without divine metamagic a cleric would have to wait until 15th level before casting such a spell...

Again I can see why Madelaine is upset and I apologize,especially given that she structured her character over something I completely misunderstood in my capacity as a DM .... again the blame for this rests on my shoulders... however folks I do feel compelled to point out the same thing I did in an earlier thread not too long ago... THIS IS JUST A GAME ! We all have real lives with real people outside of the RPG's... family , friends, fiancees and other lovers, children in some cases - that should fill that "void" so to speak without getting overly worked up over the rules not working out in a way you would like.

I can certainly see why you're upset especially given my goof, which I cannot apologize enough for... but if your reaction is
to scrap the character entirely and toss all the subplots I've written up for Za'era into the trash while doing so .... quite honestly I see it as an over-reaction... I think I can honestly say that were I in the same situation I as a player might be rather annoyed at the DM's mistake but I'd shrug it off and look towards re-writing my character's feats and abilities , trying for a new approach (you have official DM permission to "refund" yourself as many RP points as you'd like to get rid of anything you now feel is useless in order to purchase new feats, ability scores and/or skills increases... but personally I think if you just purchase divine metamagic again for quicken and again for maximize as opposed to the 2 point wisdom increase you mentioned earlier Za'era can totally kick ass ! ).

Ultimately it's up to you how you want to approach this.. if you want to keep Za'era or toss her entirely...

[darkalloy]

Jan 19, 2011 16:52:40 GMT -5 @madelaine said:

First:
I have to say that it would be nice to talk to me first before making a final ruling and offer me to take back the divine metamagic feat for 100RP. Especially since my whole character is based on this ability. So running around with over 60 turn undeads but having no use for them because of the final ruling but (yay) being allowed to take back the one single feat is kind of .. uhm ... well... decide on your own.

Second:
It costs 7 turns in my opinion to make a spell persistent no matter of what spell is used. 1 + 6 (the levels by which the spell would be pushed). At least this is how I read the rules.

Third:
I am a bit sad how every page and book is turned upside down to find a way how to use every single advantage the system is giving them. Seeing this I am also sad to say that I will think about to start going through every book and dragon magazine to find holes in the rules to use.

All was fine as long as I was playing nice and supportive to the group but as soon as I piss off one character and Za'era does not act as desired instantly hell breaks loose.

Maybe you take a moment and think about all this.

Did I ever complain about some characters insane bluff or diplomacy skills? Their ability to knock me out bare handed? To entrance me with their skills? And what not?

I am sorry. I am really sad to see that I tried to play a character with a LOT of RP background and even tons of flaws and not caring about stats and skills and merits so much but feeling kind of left behind because of some people seem to try to squeeze every single advantage out of the system they can get but then point fingers and whine if there is someone doing the same and suddenly have a chance to oneshot their character as well.

It is not that my character with her skills and feats came totally out of the blue. I communicated and discussed everything with Andre upfront and now suddenly things are turned upside down because I dared to confront a player character.

If the final say will be "the build is fun but useless but hey... you can take back that one feat if you want" then I have to say that I will simply burn the charactersheet.

I am disappointed... Seriously disappointed... Not about the situation of my character alone but the behavior of some people as well. I am really sorry to say so.

I think it was the miscommunication the permanent that had us doing the rule look up. Because I mean lets face it, permanent spells generally cannot be dismissed and the would mean Azcot would have sat there forever effectively killing him, Well truly killing him after a while as he would die of dehydration.

The divine metamagic(persistent spell) is still useful however as prayer and many other spells can still be extended. Unlike Extend spell how ever Persistent spell was not meant to lengthen combat spells, it was however meant to lengthen buffs like bull's strength on people as touch is a fixed range with Andre's ruling as the range is 5ft. period if your are medium sized and it does not change. And yes you are right you expend 7 turn attempts no matter how high the spell's level base level is as it requires one to start pushing the divine power into the spell and 6 more to fill it with enough power to make it last 24 hours.


As for me looking up the feats I'm sorry about that, It just seemed like a good Idea as a few people seemed confused last night yourself included about mage slayer, that and Andre hadn't looked them up yet. (Bad DM) I am also sorry if I seem to be one of those players that looks for loopholes, I don't think I do at least not purposely, and believe me I know how you would feel if you character suddenly became useless.

Rin was built to be able to talk his way out of just anything and fight his way out to some degree if he failed at it. Which seeing as his Diplo is sitting at a +32 with out his cloak it's still not impossible for him to talk his way out. However a few PC's are too gun-ho for Rin to make any truly useful skill rolls with Diplo and Bluff. A prime example was back when Za'era joined the PC's and Nine(former PC for those that do not know) attacked the draconian's after Rin bluffed his way past them to get to Za'era, thus leaving Rin surrounded when combat started, and getting knocked out as a result. We could actually talk our way past many many encounters if Rin was allowed to talk with out someone from our side pulling their weapon. *looks in Azcot, Eolaer and Sangrias's direction.* But Alas that will never be the case, as of late I've been trying to get Rin beat up, not killed just beat up as everyone else wants to be the life of the combat party and Rin doesn't like to fight unless he is forced too. No offense to anyone and sorry if it seems that way just my two cents about the party and combat.

[Andre]

And even then there are practical limits to Rin's diplomacy too.. no matter how charming he is even he would have a hard time say convincing the Dark Queen Takhisis to call off the whole taking over Krynn with her dragonarmies thing no matter how good Rin's roll was ....

Madelaine the Spell Compendium is worth a look through, I can shoot you the pdf if need be - plenty of powerful cleric spells in there.

And I think a reprint of the chat log is worth mentioning here too (see below).. if you read it over closely you'll see Azcot doesn't put up a fight when she casts a spell on him and he apologizes later on albeit to a Za'era who has melded into stone (but he did TRY to apologize)... I've put those parts of the chat log in bold text.

Za'era growls and starts casting a spell.. (go ahead if you want to do your trick again Azcot)
[TURN] Tani

Azcot The Red backs up and lets her

Flak (Sangrias): Master casts into familiar. Familiar holds the spell, until either it unleashes the spell, or master casts another spell [wasting the old one on the familiar]


Tani looks down and sees Za'era praying out loud ...(does she do anything? )

Serinda pats a gentle hand on the flank of the horse and whispers softly to it
Serinda: "Thank you friend..." (Elven)

[TURN] Rin
[TURN] Sangrias

Sangrias looks up and sees Za'era, eyes blazing red, praying ..
Za'era moves her hands and casts "Hold person" on Azcot
Sangrias: Yeah, can't have none of that.

Azcot The Red -> Will save [16] [1d20+11 = 16]
Campaign saved.
[w] Za'era: not saved

Flak (Sangrias): I'm side-stepping. Not wantin' to get caught.
[TURN] Za'era

Za'era gestures... and Azcot suddenly stands still as a statue...

[TURN] Eolaer
[TURN] Serinda

Sangrias: Yeah, this isn't good. Not good at all.

Matthijs (Serinda): I think he's humanoid(Dragonblooded) until the level he turns into a true dragon
Madelaine (Za'era): Wait.. Please.. I am NOT done!
Azcot The Red stays still anyway

Za'era turns the spell PERMANENT

Madelaine (Za'era): Now I am done.

Madelaine (Za'era): permanency is working. why should it not work?

Madelaine (Za'era): Yes

Madelaine (Za'era): Yes.. Spells with a defined range and duration can be turned permanent.

Madelaine (Za'era): No.. its a Divine Metamagic

Madelaine (Za'era): Divine Metamagic

Madelaine (Za'era): Complete Divine

Madelaine (Za'era): I have written all this up in my char notes and my private forum area..

Matthijs (Serinda): What metamagic is it to turn the spell permanent? I want it lol
Campaign saved.

Madelaine (Za'era): Even posted it to you as I took the feat

Madelaine (Za'era): Yes.. But you have to pay it with turn undeads which you do not have as a arcane caster

Nydhog (Eolaer): ill brb

Madelaine (Za'era): The persistence makes it 24 hours.

Madelaine (Za'era): it makes it TWENTYFOUR HOURS

Serinda sees Za'era gesture and Azcot goes rock still

Matthijs (Serinda): Do we still need combat?

Serinda stands up and glances at Azcot with a frown.

Madelaine (Za'era): Guess how the Prayer and Protection from Evil is lasting 24 hours and not just rounds

Serinda: "He was just trying to help.."

Nydhog (Eolaer): could be hold monster

Madelaine (Za'era): The feat its called Permanency

Za'era: ok.. Its called "persistent" sorry.

[TURN] Azcot The Red

[TURN] Tani

Sangrias: ...Wonderful, the entire company is completely out of shape. One stilled, two knocked out... wonderful.

Azcot The Red makes like a tree

Dungeon Master: Does Za'era heal Eolaer ?

[w] Rin -> Za'era: is the feat itself in complete divine I'm not seeing it.

Azcot The Red in his horror, can not move his limbs no matter how hard he tries
Campaign saved.

Sangrias edges his hand toward his weapon. Really in a bad spot here
.
[w] Za'era -> Rin: Persistent Spell (CA): Fixed or personal range spells last 24 hours
[w] Za'era -> Rin: Divine Metamagic(CD) - Persistent Spell: Spend 7 TU to make a spell persistent for 24 hours.

Sangrias: Now... Calm down. Easy...

Nydhog (Eolaer): " A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level."

Nydhog (Eolaer): btw andre: dnd.savannahsoft.eu/ every feat ever
Za'era moves her hands preparing the "searing light" spell

Flak (Sangrias): Shee-

Tani looks down , sees Za'era praying and moving her hands once again ...

[TURN] Rin
[TURN] Sangrias

Madelaine (Za'era): Za'era cant deal well with breaking her trust... Sorry... Happend once too often

Sangrias sees Za'era getting ready to DO something yet again...

Flak (Sangrias): Damn it, not good...

Flak (Sangrias): I'm staying still. Acting like a tree worked before, why not now?

[TURN] Za'era

Campaign saved.


Sangrias (steady): Calm... down...
Flak (Sangrias): Totally hoping nothing bad happens.

Za'era growls and trembles. Her hands shake. Her eyes loose their deep red glow. she turns around and closes her eyes fighting hard to calm down. She waves her hand and releases the spell on Azcot then suddenly sinks into the ground disappearing.

Dungeon Master: in game terms used stone meld to sink into the stone ground beneath her instead of casting searing light

Dungeon Master: combat now over for real

Sangrias releases his breath. "Geez. Not fun..."

This leaves Sangrias and Serinda alone , the only two still conscious ...

Azcot blinks and shakes his head suddenly able to move again ...

Sangrias: Come on. Let's find a place to rest. We're gonna have to wait until everyone is able to co-operate.

The three regard each other over Rin and Eolaer's unconscious bodies


Serinda looks up to see Azcot move again, at first she's glad to see it, then she remembers she's mad at him, and turns back towards the dead horse.

Matthijs (Serinda): I'm guessing so yep

Sangrias: Serinda, help me with the bird. Azcot, since you can lift the idiot, you can carry him.

Azcot The Red speaks loudly in a panicked voice, "Za'era!!!! Don't go, I am sorr....I did not mean to hurt you! I had no choice!"

Serinda smiles for a moment looking at Azcot.. then abruptly gives him a furious look, turning back towards the dead horse..

Azcot The Red speaks in a softer tone, "I...I'm sorry"

Serinda picks her own soft blanket out her backpack and drapes it over the horse's top side, to hide the part where it's head is missing.

[w] -> Za'era: .... going to rule you can totally hear Azcot too if Za'era decides to listen in

Azcot The Red he looks around wildly but does not appear to see her anywhere


[w] Za'era: I think I can indeed but at the moment Za'era.... cries in her self chosen prison.

[Andre]

Excellent post by solardawn below.. I actually wrote up and posted my bit about needing rules to make sense out of potential chaos before Solardawn even posted this - great minds think alike or fools seldom differ ?

The only thing I disagree with is the bit about combat between PC's.. as long as it's non-lethal combat I think this kind of thing can make the game more fun IF the players can find a way to RP it without letting it get too personal.. the moment a player gets upset because they feel their character didn't " win" is when you have problems...

And yep I've mentioned to Madelaline a zillion times she does a great job RP'ing ... I personally really hope za'era is not scrapped by madelaline.

Jan 19, 2011 18:25:18 GMT -5 solardawn said:

I can understand being frustrated. There was a lot going on last time concerning rules.
I can also understand feeling frustrated if you feel like your character is left behind.


And I do think you do a lot of great roleplaying, you've put a great deal of effort into Za'era, I think you can be proud of Za'era and yourself. I enjoy playing with you and I enjoy reading everything Za'era does.

And I like to think Andre will be more then happy to talk to you about it, in great lengths. (Whether you want him to or not) and work out a solution.

That said, I personally don't feel the proper solution is to bend the rules in order to accomplish that. Because I think once we go down that path it's a quick spiral down to free-form.

Once you establish that you're willing to bend the rules for your best roleplayer. What happens when there's another conflict, and two of your best roleplayers both need you to bend the rules. Whoever has the most roleplaying points wins? That feels really wrong to me.

I really think that if you're unhappy with things, that's a serious concern, and should be to all of us. (Though I think it is)
I guess I just hope for my personal interest that it can be made better without changing the rules.

I just want to add that I do think roleplaying is important above everything else. Which may seem like a contradiction, because I like sticking to the rules so much.
But that's just because I have such a bad experience with free-form.
I was part of this big Vampire the Masquerade thing a few years back, spend 6 months of my life there.
I had to make a new character 4 times, because they kept killing off character into which I had put a LOT of work. And then they got killed off by some demi-god, half-werewolf, half-vampire, half manbearpig that was completely impossible to kill. Even though we were all supposed to play neonates.
And since I refused to drop down to that level and pretend I had powers I had absolutely no business having, I kept dying in gruesome ways with no chance of saving myself.

That experience really jaded me towards free-form. So to me, the rules are actually safeguard.
The rules make me feel safe because at least then I know what's happening. The more the rules are bend, the more frightened I become that half-abomination ultra-ninja's start popping up again around every corner to kill me.

The Irony is. I think Madelaine is feeling exactly the same, like everyone else has all the power and if you try to go against it, it's like walking into a brick wall. Which is the same way i felt in free-form. And so I do understand, because that feeling of helplessness is a really bad feeling.
But I still think we can find a way to keep everyone happy.

Lastly I do admit I try to make Serinda an effective and fairly powerful mage, I try to think of good spell combo's, good feats that go together and sometimes I just take what seems cool and what feels right for my character.
But never in order to put that to use against other player characters, I like my character to be good sure, but only against the NPC's Andre put's against us.
So far I don't think Serinda has had to take any action against another PC that involved even rolling initiative and I'll be glad if it stays that way.

[darkalloy]

Jan 19, 2011 21:37:54 GMT -5 Andre said:

And even then there are practical limits to Rin's diplomacy too.. no matter how charming he is even he would have a hard time say convincing the Dark Queen Takhisis to call off the whole taking over Krynn with her dragonarmies thing no matter how good Rin's roll was ....

That requires a +300 doesn't it?

[Andre]

Jan 19, 2011 21:58:19 GMT -5 @darkalloy said:

Jan 19, 2011 21:37:54 GMT -5 Andre said:

And even then there are practical limits to Rin's diplomacy too.. no matter how charming he is even he would have a hard time say convincing the Dark Queen Takhisis to call off the whole taking over Krynn with her dragonarmies thing no matter how good Rin's roll was ....

That requires a +300 doesn't it?

(chuckles)

[solardawn]

Maybe instead of a persistent hold person, "bestow curse" would have been a good alternative? It's permanent and has some really nasty effects. I dunno heh, I'm spending mosta my time trying to think of a way to save all yer asses

[casdegere]

Another thing that happened was "everyone" broke from cover (the game RP, the intense moment going on) to discuss the rules...again. In chat and over Skype. I was reading what she wrote and the emotion that she wanted to convey in the RP. It kind of got lost pretty quickly in the rules shuffle including myself. I will admit that I, as a player was also a bit confused as to what M wanted to happen at first but, considering my past mistakes, I wanted to just push through it and let it happen the way she wanted it to. We should all trust that whichever game we are playing, the GM's can make an immediate ruling, allowing the game to proceed and clarify the rules/specifics etc. later?

[madelaine]

To me it was very interesting to experience how hard a couple of people came down on me INSTANTLY and tried to find ways and reasons why it can NOT work. I have not seen a single message someone saying it might work or even consider it.

First it was the persistence at question and after this was MAYBE possible then it was hold person that was questioned and meant to be hold monster.

It TOTALLY destroyed my RP mood and the situation and at some point I felt like I was pushed with my back to the wall and had to defend myself against the whole group who enjoyed Za'eras skills as long as they were to their benefit. No one ever questioned them at this point but as soon as she turned against a player instantly hell broke loose and the rule lawyers stepped on the stage afraid it could be their character next time and they could loose their position of supremacy. I have witnessed this already as Rins char was questioned like a few weeks ago but it did not blow the scene apart THAT hard as it did it this time and there were actually a few people who even defended him.

Za'era might not be legit by the rules but I did not know this and I asked for permissions and got them granted by the DM. So I went with what I thought was legit and what was allowed by the DM.
This INSANE reaction in the FG game though felt like a real punch in my face.
Not only because my character was instantly questioned because she showed off for just once (which other chars do constantly by the way) but also because some people totally gave a shit on the RP anymore and made rulelawyering and smacking down a characters abilities more important instead of keeping up the RP and the intense emotional moment and bring it to the boards later on in a civilized manner.

As I said. I feel seriously disappointed and hurt.

[Andre]

Again Madelaine.. I am sorry that you felt disappointed and hurt.. but I think there's some serious over-reacting going on here too ... I'll be the first one to admit the DM (myself) isn't perfect and neither are your fellow players ... but what I see here is someone taking the "my character might have lost in a battle " thing way , WAY too seriously... I went through this before with the Azcot-Rin , casdegere vs darkalloy debate and my response now is going to be the same as it was back then - IT'S JUST A GAME ! If people are worrying THAT much about one character coming up "triumphant" over another it shows you have entirely too much spare time on your hands.

There's a certain amount of maturity I expect from my players, emotional and otherwise. I am NOT going to waste huge amounts of time breaking up 1st grade school-fights , coddling hurt player's feelings, et cetera .. I do NOT have the time for it ! Casdegere himself will tell you how busy munchkins keep you (an experience most of you will probably have yourselves some day) and I put every spare moment of time I have into this campaign - it's a labor of love granted but I expect players to be adults about this whole thing . Quite honestly Madelaline after reading that post I get the feeling you pretty much ignored everything I had to say above.. I've spent hours trying to calm you down coming up with the posts on these threads, hours that could have been spent on the campaign. And as far as I'm concerned it WAS discussed on FG in a civilized manner.

Look you're a great player and an invaluable member of the group - you're DM'ing our other campaign, you're very active on the forums and your RP is great. But at some point I have to put my foot down. Either learn to "roll with it " as I told casdegere earlier on ... or realize this isn't the campaign for you and move on. You moving on will be a huge loss to the campaign but I've survived players dropping out before and I'll survive it again. Sorry to sound so harsh but at this point I'm trying to make my expectations crystal clear for ALL the players.

[solardawn]

I don't think the Extreme reaction you felt had anything to do with you at all.
I think it just had to do with the fact that wizards of the coast and the makers of D&D 3rd edition have a certain style, and in that style they avoid certain things, and permanent negative spell effects are one of them. (There are a few mind you, just extremely rare)
So I think the reaction was more that it sounded so unlike wizards of the coast, then anything against your personally.

I admit I had that thought myself, I was like "Permanent? Huh, that doesn't sound right."

If we had been playing vampire the masquerade I wouldn't have blinked, such nasty permanent effects are common there.

I don't think I got too involved in the discussion, because I wasn't feeling too great, but for whatever my part was in it, I certainly didn't mean to make you feel bad, It just seemed really out of style for wizards of the coast. It certainly had nothing to do with you personally.

[casdegere]

Well what I think we can do here is consider this one more learning curve for us as players and as GM's. Friends do make mistakes toward one another and I feel this is one of those times.

In Andre's defense, by allowing anything goes if its printed in an official book, his task is daunting, just daunting to keep up with all this information.

Again, sincerely however, I repeat my suggestion to communicate more with each other...behind the scenes before taking action against another character. Not to ask permission, but perhaps to explain what it is you wish to accomplish. Not to get dissent but so that there is understanding and for assistance to help pull it off and RP it.

This does take away from spontaneity as a con but to me the pros are numerous. its not about being adults and taking it on the chin, its about being respectful. Sort of like game Ettiquette if you will. Even bringing the GM into the conversation for their help as well.

Now something like this could have helped this specific incident a great deal. Even though the rules were kind of being skirted, it could have still gone down with GM approval for this specific incident and the RP would have continued. Game rule implications could have been hashed out at a later date. On the game surface everyone else would have seen her actions and her words and Azcot's reaction...or being made into a tree. The RP after that could have been quite interesting. Game rules aside. That is what I have learned from my mistake.

Now I do understand what this could mean. Its not about just doing what you want and being allowed to pull it off. Like everyone has said, there are limits but I didn't think this particular move was terribly out of line.

Am I making any sense at all?

[Andre]

Jan 20, 2011 10:09:02 GMT -5 @casdegere said:

its not about being adults and taking it on the chin, its about being respectful. Sort of like game Ettiquette if you will.

With all due respect to casdegere's no doubt well intentioned efforts towards diplomacy - actually yes it is about being adults and taking it on the chin and I'll explain why.

There is NO need for an elaborate "arrange PC disagreements before they happen" sort of thing... if you resort to this sort of behavior it's a clear indication that the players involved are taking conflicts between PC's FAR too personally . I'll say it again, IT'S JUST A GAME !

Players are going to have to accept that the campaign .. and the events in game sessions in said campaign .. are not always going to go their character's way. Yes communication is important ... however I can assure you as a DM there is a limit to how much "communication" I'm going to put into posts on this forum before I get fed up... casdegere felt my wrath when he kept pushing the envelope here

whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=feedback&action=display&thread=442

It's easy to sit there and criticize the campaign as a whole sitting there as a player without having to deal with the work involved in maintaining said campaign as a DM ... well , if you don't like it there's the door. Go start up a brand new campaign that's more to your liking.

And THAT'S what I mean about maturity.. I'm looking for players who will take the DM's workload into account and not make a federal case out of it when the campaign doesn't go their way, "rolling with the punches" as it were without forcing the DM into a situation where I have to make a million forum posts just because one player is upset.. .. so YES , I do accept players to "take it on the chin" and act in a MATURE fashion that is not disruptive to the campaign as a whole. If you can't do that then this isn't the campaign for you.

I'm sick and tired of posting on this thread. Madelaline has been apologized to repeatedly by various players and is still pissed - that is NOT the kind of emotional maturity I'm looking for from players. And as far as I'm concerned if she tosses Za'era as a PC it's the same thing as throwing a tantrum because things aren't going her way. If she'd expressed dissatisfaction to me before about Za'era and was considering switching to a new character for a while that would be different ... but suddenly doing it out of the blue?

Again, my job here is to be the DM, NOT a first grade teacher. So no casdegere, while communication is great and all I don't see it as an excuse for temper tantrums or attempting to bully a campaign into going your way under the guise of "communication", let's make that clear from the get go. I think casdegere understands that from what he posted here

whatifdragonlancedm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=feedback&action=display&thread=442


So to clarify further .... this is a general statement I am making to ALL the players so they are perfectly clear on what my expectation are of them.