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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 10:31:10 GMT -5
Post by darkalloy on Jan 19, 2011 10:31:10 GMT -5
Ok so I thought I'd post some of the feats we were wondering about last night and there effects so we could clarify everything. That and to give Andre a bit of a hand. Anyway lets begin.
Mage Slayer You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spell casters and time time your attacks and defense against them expertly. Prerequisites: Spellcraft 2 ranks, Bab +3. Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. Special:Taking the feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4.
Divine Metamagic You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful. Prerequisite: Ability to Turn or Rebuke undead. Benefit: When you take this feat choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that feat. As a free action, you can take energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamgic feat to spells you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus and additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change. Special:This feat maybe taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.
Persistent Spell You can make a spell last all day. Prerequisite: Extend Spell. Benefit: Spells with fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spells actual level.
Ok I think those are the ones we were wondering about last night. If there are anymore let me know and I'll get to putting them down.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:23:19 GMT -5
Post by Andre on Jan 19, 2011 11:23:19 GMT -5
Great thanks Rin ! Just to clarify further, Mage Slayer is listed in Monster Manual 5 (official wizard's of the coast book) page 85 and is effective against both arcane and divine magic (meaning it affects mages and priests equally) The persistent feat is from page 41 of Complete Arcane... it affects only spells with a "fixed" or "personal" range.. check the "range" description of the feat here : www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htmOk found SOME sort of reference to fixed range www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221aFrom there I downloaded the v 3.5 main D & D FAQ and found a reference to the "Persistent" feat .. the pdf , which is an official wizards of the coast product states : The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet), which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat in PG. Does that mean a 17th-level druid could use a 9thlevel spell slot to give nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours, or does the built-in limit of 25 rounds make that pointless?
Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell).Looking up " vigor, mass, lesser" on page 186 of the complete divine sourcebook, it says the range is 20 feet. Period... doesn't change based on the caster's level, just 20 feet. So my final ruling is this.. " fixed" means the range doesn't change based on the caster's level... as long as the range doesn't change in the spell description (detect magic is another example of this, the range is 60 feet.. period) www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htmor the range is "personal " in the spell description you can apply the persistent spell effect.. if not you can't. Normally a persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the actual spell level.. meaning hold person (normally a 2nd level spell) with the persistent feat applied to it would require that the spell caster be able to cast 8th level spells or higher ... HOWEVER the divine metamagic spell (see below) can be used to burn 8 turning attempts, plus the extra turning attempt required to trigger it, to make the spell last 24 hours.. it's just the range of spells you can use it on is a lot more limited than what we originally thought. Madelaine, my apologies for not catching this earlier when you PM'ed me about it.. so busy running the campaign that I don't have time to investigate every feat players pick, which perhaps I should start doing ... in light of this information you can certainly feel free to either discard the persistent spell feat and take a new one or just simply "take back" the 100 RP points you spent on it and add it to your total RP to be spent on something else. Divine metamagic (page 80, complete divine) however COULD be used to extend " hold person" for example ... www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htmmaking the spell last twice it's normal duration .... so hold person could be used by a 5th level caster such as Za'era to last 10 rounds rather than the usual 5 rounds for example... unfortunately you can't spend multiple turn attempts to "stack" an extend spell to make it last longer than that : www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats" Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell. " So the spell would last a maximum of twice it's normal duration if Za'era spent two of her turning attempts. Finally (and my apologies Madelaline I know you mentioned earlier you prefer quick-flowing RP to "crunchy" rules and these rules are exceptionally "crunchy" I'm throwing out there so my apologies for all the rules ) ... "hold person" works on anyone listed as a "humanoid" type in the monster entries here : www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm(check near the beginning of the monster entry to see if it's considered " humanoid", " dragon", et cetera) Since Azcot is a half-dragon he is considered to fall under the "dragon", not "humanoid" type www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htmSo future uses of hold person would not work against him.. they will however work against Serinda, Sangrias, Eolaer , or Rin since they all fall into the humanoid subtype (see page 87 of monster manual III, kenku are listed as humanoid in their statistics).
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:29:20 GMT -5
Post by casdegere on Jan 19, 2011 11:29:20 GMT -5
mageslayer was also in Complete Arcane, pg81...thats where I found it! And so, Hold Monster is what will work against Azcot?
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:31:30 GMT -5
Post by darkalloy on Jan 19, 2011 11:31:30 GMT -5
Detect magic is a personal range spell, wall of fire/ice, silence, and darkenss would be fixed range spells. As they can be cast a distance but they never move once cast, save darkness and silence as they can be cast on objects that can be moved.
Yes Azcot would need to have hold monster used on him to get the same effect again.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:33:02 GMT -5
Post by flak on Jan 19, 2011 11:33:02 GMT -5
Along with several mage-slaying type things. Pierce magical concealment/protection can be deadly... but there are ways to defend yourself.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:34:39 GMT -5
Post by Andre on Jan 19, 2011 11:34:39 GMT -5
Ahh I see (far as the fixed range).. is there a page number from a book or a website we can pull up to verify that though ? Nothing personal , I just like to have the actual page number cited in case anyone disagrees .... And hold person only works on persons of the "humanoid" type... Azcot's type is "dragon" www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htmSo my understanding is that it would not work on him - unless a rules expert says otherwise? (see hold person description at : www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm )
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:41:39 GMT -5
Post by solardawn on Jan 19, 2011 11:41:39 GMT -5
Actually it never says you need to be able to cast the modified level of the spell. Afterall you use divine energy instead of the higher caster level. So as I read it, according to official rules, she can use persistent spell just fine. It might make sense if they had said "You need to be able to cast the modified spell level to use this feat" But they didn't. There is the range thing, so yeah hold person probably wouldn't work, the persistent spell feat is mostly meant to make buffs last all day long so you don't spend the first 10 rounds of combat buffing. Still in theory she be able to cast her buffs and make them last 24 hours. However, each time you cast a spell empowered with persistent spell. It would use up 7 turn undead attempts. 1 + the increase in level which makes 7 turn undead attempts. It might still allow her to make magic circle vs evil last all day long. Which would be nice for all of us. But I can't see anyone having 14 turn undead attempts.
As for Azcot, I'm certainly not an expert on how he was build. But I looked through races of the dragon, and as I understand it. He's taking the half-dragon monster class? Last time I read through it, that makes him a Humanoid(Dragonblooded) until the moment he's taken all 4 levels of half-dragon, and 'then' he becomes a true dragon. The monster class mentions it "Dragon type". However I might be totally wrong. You might not have used the monster class, and I think you added some personal flavor too so it's all good.
Just throwing in what i'm thinking.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:41:45 GMT -5
Post by darkalloy on Jan 19, 2011 11:41:45 GMT -5
That's correct Hold person will not work on Azcot, it has to be hold monster. Fixed range is actually fixed area as there is no fixed range descriptor. Basically if you were to look at silence you would notice it says under area 20-foot emanation centered on a creature object or point in space. It's a more or less commonsense/DM discretion thing for what is of a fixed range persuasion.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 11:59:02 GMT -5
Post by Andre on Jan 19, 2011 11:59:02 GMT -5
Thank you solardawn you are RIGHT ! But now I need to figure out what the heck "fixed range" is .. can anyone find an official ruling or do I need to make an ad-hoc judgement? Also she's purchased extra turning many times and it's effects stack so yes she does in fact have it (she gets a lot of RP points from her forum activity , she's been active on the forums for a long while now too - I reward that sort of thing ) www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extraTurningActually it never says you need to be able to cast the modified level of the spell. Afterall you use divine energy instead of the higher caster level. So as I read it, according to official rules, she can use persistent spell just fine. It might make sense if they had said "You need to be able to cast the modified spell level to use this feat" But they didn't. There is the range thing, so yeah hold person probably wouldn't work, the persistent spell feat is mostly meant to make buffs last all day long so you don't spend the first 10 rounds of combat buffing. Still in theory she be able to cast her buffs and make them last 24 hours. However, each time you cast a spell empowered with persistent spell. It would use up 7 turn undead attempts. 1 + the increase in level which makes 7 turn undead attempts. It might still allow her to make magic circle vs evil last all day long. Which would be nice for all of us. But I can't see anyone having 14 turn undead attempts. Just throwing in what i'm thinking.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 12:16:28 GMT -5
Post by Andre on Jan 19, 2011 12:16:28 GMT -5
Ok found SOME sort of reference to fixed range www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221aFrom there I downloaded the v 3.5 main D & D FAQ and found a reference to the "Persistent" feat .. the pdf , which is an official wizards of the coast product states : The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet), which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat in PG. Does that mean a 17th-level druid could use a 9thlevel spell slot to give nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours, or does the built-in limit of 25 rounds make that pointless?
Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell).Looking up " vigor, mass, lesser" on page 186 of the complete divine sourcebook, it says the range is 20 feet. Period... doesn't change based on the caster's level, just 20 feet. So my final ruling is this.. " fixed" means the range doesn't change based on the caster's level... as long as the range doesn't change in the spell description (detect magic is another example of this, the range is 60 feet.. period) or the range is "personal " in the spell description you can apply the persistent spell effect.. if not you can't.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 13:42:59 GMT -5
Post by solardawn on Jan 19, 2011 13:42:59 GMT -5
That's cool, means all those buffs still work
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 16:52:40 GMT -5
Post by madelaine on Jan 19, 2011 16:52:40 GMT -5
First: I have to say that it would be nice to talk to me first before making a final ruling and offer me to take back the divine metamagic feat for 100RP. Especially since my whole character is based on this ability. So running around with over 60 turn undeads but having no use for them because of the final ruling but (yay) being allowed to take back the one single feat is kind of .. uhm ... well... decide on your own.
Second: It costs 7 turns in my opinion to make a spell persistent no matter of what spell is used. 1 + 6 (the levels by which the spell would be pushed). At least this is how I read the rules.
Third: I am a bit sad how every page and book is turned upside down to find a way how to use every single advantage the system is giving them. Seeing this I am also sad to say that I will think about to start going through every book and dragon magazine to find holes in the rules to use.
All was fine as long as I was playing nice and supportive to the group but as soon as I piss off one character and Za'era does not act as desired instantly hell breaks loose.
Maybe you take a moment and think about all this.
Did I ever complain about some characters insane bluff or diplomacy skills? Their ability to knock me out bare handed? To entrance me with their skills? And what not?
I am sorry. I am really sad to see that I tried to play a character with a LOT of RP background and even tons of flaws and not caring about stats and skills and merits so much but feeling kind of left behind because of some people seem to try to squeeze every single advantage out of the system they can get but then point fingers and whine if there is someone doing the same and suddenly have a chance to oneshot their character as well.
It is not that my character with her skills and feats came totally out of the blue. I communicated and discussed everything with Andre upfront and now suddenly things are turned upside down because I dared to confront a player character.
If the final say will be "the build is fun but useless but hey... you can take back that one feat if you want" then I have to say that I will simply burn the charactersheet.
I am disappointed... Seriously disappointed... Not about the situation of my character alone but the behavior of some people as well. I am really sorry to say so.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 17:23:16 GMT -5
Post by casdegere on Jan 19, 2011 17:23:16 GMT -5
M, are you upset with me? Because um...I was actually ok with it all as it went down. The only thing I didn't understand is how it came out in some of the typing and just wanted to make sure what you wanted to accomplish. Actually, when you first said the word, Permanent, I feared for the worst. I mean, Azcot had been Permanently frozen for all time to remain a statue. And you know what? If that is what you wanted to accomplish, I wanted you to RP it like that. It would have been harsh but considering what he did, to Za'era, personally...not so far fetched I think and you attached it into RP. And then everyone scrambled to figure out exactly what you were trying to do with those feats.
I can not really comment about "rules are rules" Azcot was not made from the start as he should have been, line for line, per the rules. Andre had/has every right to shrink him to medium etc. and bring him in line with what the rules say,we were kind of learning as we were doing. We all try to create characters within the rules but sometimes, characters are special. They are...PC's after all. GM's want people to be generally happy, I am willing to bet that if you and he take it to PM's and hash it out, you will be pleasently surprised.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 17:38:28 GMT -5
Post by madelaine on Jan 19, 2011 17:38:28 GMT -5
RP'wise all I can say is that Azcot hit a REAL sore spot and Za'era fought hard not to throw all against him she has hidden in the darkest corner of her heart killing him and by this herself as well for being backstabbed by someone she called a friend which is not the first time such (or a similar) thing happened to her. She calmed down and came back to tell you that she is sorry and asked for Azcots forgiveness. He did not accept her apology and furthermore he did not say a single word of excuse to her either. You talked about action and reaction when it came to Rins actions and Azcots reactions (or the other way around).
This will nag for a long time in Za'eras mind and clearly influence her (re)actions.
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Feats
Jan 19, 2011 18:04:08 GMT -5
Post by casdegere on Jan 19, 2011 18:04:08 GMT -5
Azcot did apologize while Za'era was in the Earth, something very out of character for him. He felt badly for what he did but he had to be convincing and unfortunately, acting like that, seemed to come natural to him. he didn't do what he did then just...walk away, he was spilling it, hoping Za'era would hear him and come back.
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